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"Things that cannot be measured"

kristiansen

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That's because the violin doesn't sound more 'right'.
You must see the video in the light of creating awareness of different types of distortion (not just HD) and that with different types of distortion different audibility levels exist (logically).
What he shows is that for some types of distortion you need to go beyond 10% and others may be just 0.1% before they become audible in a specific way.

He also wants to create awareness that looking for 0.0001% or 0.01% of a specific type of distortion is pointless as you would need to go up to >10% for that specific type to be audible. But for other types of distortion 1% of that type is VERY poor sounding yet the other type can reach 10% and you don't even hear it.

It looks like you feel what he says confirms your line of thoughts. It doesn't. In fact it is the total opposite of what you claim. He shows everything can be shown with measurements as long as you measure the right things. This means NOT the specs manufacturers use as these are marketing material rather then useful info. He also shows that correct interpretation of measurements is important.

He did not mention silver cables measure or sound better than copper and you need brand X type resistors or a special 'mix' of parts only known to gurus to create some thing that sounds 'better' but cannot be proven by measurements. This is what you claim.

Think it's okay that you do not share my views, but that you completely distort what Jonathan novick says in the video and in the podcast in your fight for your own position is not right.
The first 15 minutes he uses to explain that the language the definitions we use as a listener is something completely different than spec.
I totally agree.

He then goes on to explain how manufacturers abuse and simplify specs.
I again completely agree.

Then he shows how THD sounds and how much THD should be added before we react, that's not how we assess Hifi, if we hear something similar to what Jonathan demonstrates, we will immediately say that there is something wrong with The product.

He relates THD to various problem in amplifier construction, something that has been known for over 40 years and which everyone does everything to avoid.

He uses the last part of the video to pick it all up and explains that constant progress is being made to make measurements and the listening experience fit together.
Again completely agree. But we are far from the goal in my opinion.
He gathers it all on this poster, A paraphrase of Albert Einstein's favorite quote that hung in his office
notall.PNG
 
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solderdude

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The first 15 minutes he uses to explain that the language the definitions we use as a listener is something completely different than spec.
I totally agree.

I agree fully with that too. He explains/remarks that different words and descriptions are used to describe sounds. He never said that these were not measurable. Just that the same words are not used by people that measure things. He also says these 'sound descriptors' also can not be related to one single spec or measurement.

He then goes on to explain how manufacturers abuse and simplify specs.
I again completely agree.

yes, I completely agree as well. That's why ASR provides a valuable service by checking those specs. The 'problem' here is (what Novick states) is that more different measurements should be done besides the usual ones.
He then proceeds to show about momentary power and the 120Hz modulation in a specific amp (not all amps do this) and says there is no standard test that shows this. He is right. However, you must realize that it is clearly measured to exist (you saw the plot) so it is measurable and has lead to different measurement methods as he showed later. So no surprises there and is fully measurable but there is no single number manufacturers an publish to show this. It was fine for guitar amps but hifi is not a guitar amp he also mentions. So again your point is not made by Novack.

Then he shows how THD sounds and how much THD should be added before we react, that's not how we assess Hifi, if we hear something similar to what Jonathan demonstrates, we will immediately say that there is something wrong with The product.

You need to understand the differences between THD and all different types of distortion. He explains it clearly in the video and how different audibility thresholds exist for various types of distortion. It's a pure technical and highly proven fact of life. There are also no mysteries there and Novack knows this. That's why they continue to develop tests to 'show' certain aspects in a single number. He does not mean it cannot be measured at all. Just that there is no standard test that captures a specific something in a specific number.

But we are far from the goal in my opinion.

When the goal is to measure every (combined) effect in measurements and create a single number for it for in a spec sheet ... yes. Novack is 100% right.
He clearly states (and is true) that when you cannot find something you haven't measured the correct things. He NEVER states some things aren't measurable. What he means by that is that you just cannot tell how an amp really performs by looking at FR and 'THD' (or SINAD) measurements only or by looking at 'glossed over' specs from manufacturers.
You need to perform a suite of tests under various conditions. With those tests you can say something about actual fidelity.
But only if you fully understand all these tests, know about audibility thresholds (which you can put in plots) and what effect it has on the sound.
How many folks do you know that actually posses that knowledge ?
That's one of the functions of ASR... to explain this.
The problem is you need someone that knows about all of this and is a good communicator/teacher. That person must be able to 'simplify' something very complex and explain this. Written it will take several books. Amir's YT explanations just scratch the surface of what there is to know about those subjects.

Your claims thus hold no water in Novack's talk. They are an attempt to 'simplify' one single aspect (distortion in power amps) to a public that ranges from total noobs to more enlightened folks. It was a complaint against manufacturer specs and subjective descriptions that sometimes hold truth but are NOT immeasurable. They can be shown to exist there just is not a single number for it. AP tries to help here.

Your sighted observations do not add anything to this conclusion. When you want Novack to work for you I am quite certain he will ask you to prove your findings so he can determine which measurements can show this and how to capture that in a single spec. The problem is that for you to show this to an engineer he will demand this should be tested blind. As you already confessed you cannot show it that way you are looking at a stalemate.
 
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Sir Sanders Zingmore

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Think it's okay that you do not share my views, but that you completely distort what Jonathan novick says in the video and in the podcast in your fight for your own position is not right.
The first 15 minutes he uses to explain that the language the definitions we use as a listener is something completely different than spec.
I totally agree.

He then goes on to explain how manufacturers abuse and simplify specs.
I again completely agree.

Then he shows how THD sounds and how much THD should be added before we react, that's not how we assess Hifi, if we hear something similar to what Jonathan demonstrates, we will immediately say that there is something wrong with The product.

He relates THD to various problem in amplifier construction, something that has been known for over 40 years and which everyone does everything to avoid.

He uses the last part of the video to pick it all up and explains that constant progress is being made to make measurements and the listening experience fit together.
Again completely agree. But we are far from the goal in my opinion.
He gathers it all on this poster, which is a reformulation of Einstein's famous words.
View attachment 125756
Did Einstein actually say that?
 

kristiansen

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Did Einstein actually say that?
No that's jonathan Novick version of Albert Einstein's favorite quote that hung in his office "Not all that counts can be counted, not all that can be counted, counts"
 
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No one could hear the difference between the original recording (CD ripped to hard disk - wav) and the same number run through this in the picture (incl 6 inch solder)
Kristiansen put the files into audacity and said that he well understood no one could hear the difference, because it could not be seen in Audacity by comparisons. However, he thought it could be heard if you put a super capacitor (like DCA) into the signal path and then the sound would actually be better than the original recording

MOD EDIT: Pictures deleted by request from the member.


The soundfile has gone from one pc (usb out) to another pc (usb in) via: Idefender 3.0, usb hub, headphone amplifier with D / A converter (china), monacor minimixer with A / D converter, 6 meter cheap usb cable, 3 series-connected bennic capacitors (each bundle 1000 uF = approx. 330 uF), and 6 inch solder wire
 
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mkawa

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analytical psychologists have been trying to find measurable indications of emotional response for years and have had some success. one of my old coworkers was working on a project for measuring distress that was pretty promising.
 

Jimbob54

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analytical psychologists have been trying to find measurable indications of emotional response for years and have had some success. one of my old coworkers was working on a project for measuring distress that was pretty promising.

Let the artists and psychologists worry about what happens once the soundwaves hit our ears, let the engineers worry about how they gets there.
 

ahofer

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Think it's okay that you do not share my views, but that you completely distort what Jonathan novick says in the video and in the podcast in your fight for your own position is not right.
The first 15 minutes he uses to explain that the language the definitions we use as a listener is something completely different than spec.
I totally agree.

He then goes on to explain how manufacturers abuse and simplify specs.
I again completely agree.

Then he shows how THD sounds and how much THD should be added before we react, that's not how we assess Hifi, if we hear something similar to what Jonathan demonstrates, we will immediately say that there is something wrong with The product.

He relates THD to various problem in amplifier construction, something that has been known for over 40 years and which everyone does everything to avoid.

He uses the last part of the video to pick it all up and explains that constant progress is being made to make measurements and the listening experience fit together.
Again completely agree. But we are far from the goal in my opinion.
He gathers it all on this poster, which is a reformulation of Einstein's famous words.
View attachment 125756

I think you are missing the difference between 1) Are we measuring the right things (the right way) to assess audible preferences? and 2) Are things that affect audible preference measurable? 1=not always; 2=yes.

Then there is 3) Can we measure the things that affect non-audible preferences? 3=Not by a long shot, but their influence is observable by controlled experimentation.
 

kristiansen

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BluesDaddy

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Probably right, I saw Einstein's name and concluded too quickly, my mistake, officially, it was Albert Einstein's favorite quote that hung in his office.
But It fits well into this world and Jonathan Novick version fits well with audio
Actually it has nothing to do with science and everything to do with human relationships and immeasurable things like humans' reactions to art, music, and beauty.
 
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I this video it is told that if the listening room is perfect and the speakers are good, then the difference between an expensive and cheap amplifier will be vanishingly small.
In such an amplifier there are usually quite a few components and how should we humans then be able to hear huge differences on a single capacitor, when there are many of them in a amp + a lot of other electronics that only make a small disappearing difference


The pictures of the test in this thread (#586), no one could hear the difference even though it is very cheap electronics versus no electronics between the music. Isn´t there already enough evidence that we humans are eerily easy to cheat and especially when you know what is made of change.
It is fine to experience a difference, but it happens in the head and not in reality


There are plenty of examples of not hearing the differences if you do not know anything in advance, but there is absolutely no evidence that humans can hear the difference, in many of the things that are written about in a blind test.
I have the 2 files from the test and I can post them here so you can try to hear the difference between them (or lack of the same) or examine the files further
 

ahofer

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if the listening room is perfect and the speakers are good, then the difference between an expensive and cheap amplifier will be vanishingly small.
just a quick edit.
 

Wes

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No that's jonathan Novick version of Albert Einstein's favorite quote that hung in his office "Not all that counts can be counted, not all that can be counted, counts"

So, Einstein was talking about discontinuous spaces, not ones that can be measured.

Interesting, since he disliked and rejected quantum physics.
 

Wes

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Actually it has nothing to do with science and everything to do with human relationships and immeasurable things like humans' reactions to art, music, and beauty.

those reactions are measurable - e.g. by monitoring oxytocin levels

in fact, field endocrinologists can measure the opposite - stress levels - in wild animals
 

mansr

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those reactions are measurable - e.g. by monitoring oxytocin levels

in fact, field endocrinologists can measure the opposite - stress levels - in wild animals
Did they find that having their hormone levels measured makes animals stressed?
 

Wes

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Yes, but they have controls for that. When I was a graduate student at one of my own study areas, a guy wanders in and I find out he was a graduate student too - in field endocrinology. He proceeded to collect tear samples from his animals then took them back to the lab.

That was in the late 1970s, and I suspect they put implants in nowadays.
 

BluesDaddy

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those reactions are measurable - e.g. by monitoring oxytocin levels

in fact, field endocrinologists can measure the opposite - stress levels - in wild animals
I'd invite you to provide measurements of the love a parent has for his her child.
 

sq225917

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You can't measure love, it's a description of a combination of physical, emotional and psychological responses. It's a linguistic construct.
 
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