"Things that cannot be measured"

[JeremyFife]

Originally recorded for and released on LP using the Soundstream system. It was limited to 16 bits. Later released onto CD. I seem to recall the cannons and cymbals were re-recorded for later releases on DSD or some such. You think 144 db is not enough? Still does not mean such cannot be measured only that recording it is a problem. I've seen somewhere an article regarding the CD. The cannon causes some clipping and it happens below 0 dbFS, so presumably the microphone pre or microphone clipped. Telarc said no compression or processing was done, but obviously one had to set levels somewhere in the chain. Perhaps it could be done now with two different ADCs running at different levels and combined to achieve that full range and released in 32 bit format. That will do it.

Bigger Bang, I think...

Having said that, that's interesting - thanks

 

[antcollinet]

No.

I've done measures with REW around speakers from different angles and you don't get the same thing. You get visible differences in the graphed results. What speakers, and distance from them did you do this measurement?

While true, it is probably important to note that when we do a typical REW measurement, we are not measuring the separate contribution of the reflections, nor are we measuring direction of the sound.

Technically we could - but we don't. A lot of the "collapsing of the sound stage" will come from those things we are not measuring with REW.

If I aim my speakers in 5 degrees more than normal, the soundstage collapses into a single point, treble increases noticeably, and REW measures no visible difference in the charts. Yet the sound is completely different as day and night.

This is just a repetition of the "but you cant measure soundstage" trope.

You are not seeing the full cause of the collapse of sound stage in the in-room measurement in your room you are doing with a single mic. That is not a big surprise - you don't have the necessary gear to do it. That doesn't mean it can't be measured, it just that you don't have the kit to measure it. - You'd need a complex setup probably consisting of a spherical array of small directional mics and some complex processing to determine magnitude, phase and direction of all the sound paths. I suspect it would be quite expensive.


On the other hand the measurements done here by Amir DO actually measure the characteristics of speakers** which give them the capability of delivering good sound stage if properly placed in a suitable room.

What can't be measured here is how those speakers perform specifically in your room positioned as you have them. And doing those in room measurements to determine what is going on with sound stage is beyond the capability of your average consumer.


**Im excluding electronics because as long as they perform moderately well they'll have no effect on sound stage

 

[rdenney]

And yet, no definitive answers, clearly.

Plenty of answers, just no consensus.

Rick "demonstrating the falsity of accusations that those nerds over at ASR all think alike" Denney

 

[ahofer]

Page 98:

Did anyone come up with anything that can't be measured?

Our capacity to fool ourselves?

 

[Rottmannash]

Was reading the UAPP thread over on HeadFi this AM and couldn't help but notice this poster should become an ASR member. His assertion is WAV files sound "better" than flac files and his reasoning leaves a bit to be desired. He should join this discussion. These are his pronouncements:

"I agree that this is the case theoretically, but it is different on actually listening to the differences between WAV and FLAC files the FLAC files sound slightly harsh or bright compared to WAV. Although the FLAC data bits are exactly the same as the WAV data bits, the FLAC decompression process has made a sonic difference probably due to the processing time."

"I meant to add that there being noticeable, significant difference in SQ between WAV and FLAC files apparently due to extremely minute timing differences in the processing of the digital data words is to be expected because the resolution of the ear-brain system is vastly greater than most instrumentation. As witness the subtle but significant improvements in SQ acheived by various "tweaks" made to high-end audio systems. LIke better cables, special micro-vibration-absorbing equipment feet, AC power conditioners, etc. This is getting into a controversial area, but I know from experience as a long-term audiophile that these effects are real."

 

[Muddywaters]

 

[ahofer]

I know from experience as a long-term audiophile that these effects are real.

This one always gets me. Most types of audiophilia are almost anti-training.

 

[Sal1950]

Was reading the UAPP thread over on HeadFi this AM and couldn't help but notice this poster should become an ASR member.

It's nonsense like this that I quit posting at Head-Fi about 6 or 7 years ago.
They herded us into a "science" thread where we could be bullied by all the lunnies who hang out there.. LOL

 

[krabapple]

Our capacity to fool ourselves?

Perusal of global news on any given day indicates it may be infinite

 

[Sal1950]

Wasn't it great when we were this young and had this energy?
I've seen a lot of bands over the years, none with more than,
The Who - Won't Get Fooled Again !

 

[krabapple]

Plenty of answers, just no consensus.

Rick "demonstrating the falsity of accusations that those nerds over at ASR all think alike" Denney

The answers aren't even interesting anymore, compared to the biblical psychodynamic of posters being compelled to return again and again and again to expound at length on the same answers, 'as a dog returneth to its vomit'.

 

[Spkrdctr]

minute timing differences in the processing of the digital data words is to be expected because the resolution of the ear-brain system is vastly greater than most instrumentation. As witness the subtle but significant improvements in SQ achieved by various "tweaks" made to high-end audio systems. LIke better cables, special micro-vibration-absorbing equipment feet, AC power conditioners, etc. This is getting into a controversial area, but I know from experience as a long-term audiophile that these effects are real."

I am stunned. Shocked and maybe appalled. All of this in one post!

 

[Chubbs McCallister]

While true, it is probably important to note that when we do a typical REW measurement, we are not measuring the separate contribution of the reflections, nor are we measuring direction of the sound.

Technically we could - but we don't. A lot of the "collapsing of the sound stage" will come from those things we are not measuring with REW.

This is just a repetition of the "but you cant measure soundstage" trope.

You are not seeing the full cause of the collapse of sound stage in the in-room measurement in your room you are doing with a single mic. That is not a big surprise - you don't have the necessary gear to do it. That doesn't mean it can't be measured, it just that you don't have the kit to measure it. - You'd need a complex setup probably consisting of a spherical array of small directional mics and some complex processing to determine magnitude, phase and direction of all the sound paths. I suspect it would be quite expensive.


On the other hand the measurements done here by Amir DO actually measure the characteristics of speakers** which give them the capability of delivering good sound stage if properly placed in a suitable room.

What can't be measured here is how those speakers perform specifically in your room positioned as you have them. And doing those in room measurements to determine what is going on with sound stage is beyond the capability of your average consumer.


**Im excluding electronics because as long as they perform moderately well they'll have no effect on sound stage

Has anyone ever been able to measure a soundstage disappearing? Or is this only conjecture that we can?

We all know it happens. If there are no concrete measurements using perhaps "a complex setup probably consisting of a spherical array of small directional mics and some complex processing to determine magnitude, phase and direction of all the sound paths" then it's pretty interesting. A great unsolved mystery. Who has the data?

 

[antcollinet]

Has anyone ever been able to measure a soundstage disappearing? Or is this only conjecture that we can?

We all know it happens. If there are no concrete measurements using perhaps "a complex setup probably consisting of a spherical array of small directional mics and some complex processing to determine magnitude, phase and direction of all the sound paths" then it's pretty interesting. A great unsolved mystery. Who has the data?

I doubt it has ever been developed. We are basically talking about an inverse klippel - to measure the room/speaker including reflections, rather than the speaker directionality.

The potential customers for this (your average audio punter) are not going to pay what it would cost. There is no market for such a beast.

 

[KMSA]

I think the improvements you heard are due to a different mixing philosophy and experience. Improved technology is a long shot. My view of the AI is it offers many reasons but doesn't know which one(s) are important. It's a nice album.

But I guess technology improves. On the S.L. site they mention a new and better reverb as one of the differences;

This enhancement has profoundly opened up the sound, allowing the reverb to integrate seamlessly with the music and bring an extraordinary sense of presence. The reverb now contributes to an even more vivid, three-dimensional soundstage that makes the music feel fully alive.

 

[Ron Texas]

But I guess technology improves. On the S.L. site they mention a new and better reverb as one of the differences;

Technology improves. I listened to both and the difference is apparent. You can call me a barbarian but I like the old one better. It's great music either way.

 

[Head_Unit]

Did anyone come up with anything that can't be measured?

Yes but let's not bring politics in here ha ha!

Seriously, we can measure time now to "a fraction of a zeptosecond" and down to nanovolts. OK maybe not both at once but surely far far beyond any resolution of human hearing. So as I've said before anything claiming to make a difference be it green pens or pucks or hard drive, measurements or it didn't happen! (Or...maybe it happened in Vegas...)

 

[solderdude]

Try measuring the gullibility of audiophools.

 

[antcollinet]

Try measuring the gullibility of audiophools.

Pretty easy really. The SI unit for audiophool gullibility is the "rolleye", and 10 rolleyes = 1 facepalm.

 

[solderdude]

But how to determine the amount of roll-eyes and face palms ? This is the tricky part... is that as subjective as the statements that are made ?
Is 10 face palms the limit ?
What comes above the facepalm ?