"Things that cannot be measured"

[fpitas]

Those silly engineers and so called smart and educated people, always dismissing the emotional impact of various materials. So narrow minded!

We grit our teeth and force ourselves to listen to accurate electronics.

 

[Plcamp]

“emotional impact of various materials”

I actually prefer the edgy details revealed only by old style greased mica transistor insulators vs the muffled garble offered by the new fangled greaseless plasticized fabric versions.

But that’s just me. To each his own.

 

[fpitas]

“emotional impact of various materials”

I actually prefer the edgy details revealed only by old style greased mica transistor insulators vs the muffled garble offered by the new fangled greaseless plasticized fabric versions.

But that’s just me. To each his own.

We could talk about the sturdy resonant sound from TO-3 packages vs modern plastic versions, but I bet some audiophile forum got there ahead of us.

 

[MatrixS2000]

That's not the instrument's job. That's for the listener to do.

Agreed! A quick proof of this how some people can enjoy certain types of music while they don’t enjoy other genres, yet the same instruments are/may be involved. For example, for me, I don’t enjoy country or rap music but I do enjoy rock, classical and jazz.

 

[pablolie]

Why on earth would I want to measure what I feel? It's something I know and I don't need any validation from anywhere.
It's like my Oura ring telling me if I slept last night like crap. Useless measurement... I KNOW if I slept like crap. I don't need a smart ring to tell me.
We are way too much into trying to get third party "measured" validation for things that don't belong there, IMO.

 

[Newman]

Why on earth would I want to measure what I feel? It's something I know and I don't need any validation from anywhere.

Agreed, but I think the claim is that hifi gear transmits/amplifies/impedes the emotion in the recording getting through to the listener. Some gear good at it, other gear bad at it, etc.

So, if it can't be measured, then, per the thread title, it's an important aspect of hifi gear sonics that cannot be measured in measurements of hifi gear.

A very spurious claim IMHO but, on a science-forward forum, the challenge is to debunk (or affirm) it with rationality and evidence.

cheers

 

[pablolie]

Agreed, but I think the claim is that hifi gear transmits/amplifies/impedes the emotion in the recording getting through to the listener. Some gear good at it, other gear bad at it, etc.

So what? Establish that final connection for yourself. If after checking gear measurements and trying to correct behavior with Dirac et el... you clearly have to try something else, whatever it is.

Like I said, establish which measurements are truly relevant for YOU. If you like some harmonic distortion etc... the measurements will reveal it too. Shrug off the personal opinions and conclusions. Measurements can help you establish what YOU like, and who cares if anyone in the audio community doesn't approve of your not perfectly linear and distortion free personal preferences?

Do you leave it to measurement to establish the kind of woman you love? Your favorite pizza joint?

This topic is a long noodling of misapplying the practice of measuring for a ridiculous purpose.

PS: the "you" is generic, not directed at you, I agree with what you say.

 

[Sal1950]

Agreed, but I think the claim is that hifi gear transmits/amplifies/impedes the emotion in the recording getting through to the listener.

Subjectivist clap-trap used to get audiophools to spend huge money on marginal to worthless products.

 

[AJM1981]

Everything can be measured. It is just that not everything is that interesting to measure when there are only a few people statistically interested. If there is a large demand for certain measurements, those will be provided.

 

[fpitas]

Everything can be measured. It is just that not everything is that interesting to measure when there are only a few people statistically interested. If there is a large demand for certain measurements, those will be provided.

If a snake-oil salesman is doing his job, he gets you to believe in mystical, unmeasurable quantities, that only the human ear can perceive.

 

[Mort]

Everything can be measured.

Nope. What's the measurement of my imaginary unicorn? Or the idea of a ball? How much wetness does water have?

Not everything can be measured.

If there is a large demand for certain measurements, those will be provided.

Sure, that's basically supply and demand. But the crowd sourced answer isn't always right, we see those all the time.

 

[rgpit]

Perhaps there are distortion products that are not being properly measured. The distortions may be heard before there is a measurement process that detects or analyzes them. An example is this informative video regarding DACs from John Siau of Benchmark.

 

[Keith_W]

Nope. What's the measurement of my imaginary unicorn? Or the idea of a ball? How much wetness does water have?

Not everything can be measured.

Imaginary things can not be measured. But for your other examples:

Ball: depends on what the ball will be used for. There are regulations or specifications that define what a "ball" is for the purpose of different applications, and those sure as heck can be measured. For example, a basketball must be a certain diameter, weight, and bounce when inflated to a certain pressure.

Wetness of water: It depends on the surface tension of water and the nature of the surface to be wetted. One way is to dip the material into the liquid and measure the mechanical forces as it interacts with the liquid (tensiometry). Another way is to place a droplet of the liquid on the surface and measure the angle of the boundary (contact angle goniometry).

You could have tried harder. Like ask how you measure the emotional impact of a song. Believe it or not, that can be measured too - it's just more difficult.

 

[krabapple]

Perhaps there are distortion products that are not being properly measured. The distortions may be heard before there is a measurement process that detects or analyzes them. An example is this informative video regarding DACs from John Siau of Benchmark.

This is about intersample overs introduced in the player. A salient question is their audibility, which is barely addressed. Their frequency (as in, how many occur per a given amount of time) matters. A few scattered overs spanning a sample or two each are not likely to be perceived in normal listening.

 

[fpitas]

This is about intersample overs introduced in the player. A salient question is their audibility, which is barely addressed. Their frequency (as in, how many occur per a given amount of time) matter. A few scattered overs spanning a sample or two each are not likely to be perceived in normal listening.

I'll add, overloading of a DAC is easy to measure.

 

[krabapple]

I do agree with JS that they simply shouldn't happen, it's well within modern design capability to prevent them.

Foobar2K users can apply digital level reduction before sending the audio data to a DAC (see Myth 6)

 

[Plcamp]

If a snake-oil salesman is doing his job, he gets you to believe in mystical, unmeasurable quantities, that only the human ear can perceive.

Makes me wonder. What proportion of enthusiastic HiFi folks (note the absence of the word ‘audiophile’ - my attempt to be inclusive) believe and disbelieve in the ‘mysticism’?

Mysticism has had way more funding behind it for a lifetime now.

 

[fpitas]

Makes me wonder. What proportion of enthusiastic HiFi folks (note the absence of the word ‘audiophile’ - my attempt to be inclusive) believe and disbelieve in the ‘mysticism’?

Mysticism has had way more funding behind it for a lifetime now.

I'm sort of guessing, since everyone I know is pretty rational, and for that matter they're engineers, scientists and lawyers. But to a non-scientific person all this stuff is pretty mysterious and well, quasi-mystical. So, easy prey for the Shunyatas and AudioQuests of the world, who are long on flowery pseudo-technical explanations largely devoid of meaning. Worse yet, if they're in certain forums, they are essentially immersed in a cult. And those forums have a lot of members.

 

[MatrixS2000]

I do agree with JS that they simply shouldn't happen, it's well within modern design capability to prevent them.

Or deal with properly - thank you RME.

 

[AJM1981]

Nope. What's the measurement of my imaginary unicorn? Or the idea of a ball? How much wetness does water have?

Not everything can be measured.



Sure, that's basically supply and demand. But the crowd sourced answer isn't always right, we see those all the time.

I wasn't referring to beliefs in or outside the audioworld.