Let's make vodka out of them instead ., that's my preference.
Although jacket potato, beans and cheese is hard to beat ..
Any other favourites in terms of potatoes?, might still get some use out of this thread yet.
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"Things that cannot be measured"
- Thread starter ShiZo
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Although jacket potato, beans and cheese is hard to beat ..
Any other favourites in terms of potatoes?, might still get some use out of this thread yet.
Well, mashed to a lumpy consistency with some butter, cream, salt, and potatoes, and, importantly, next to a sous-vide rib eye, just seared after sous vide to a medium rare. Note: Not creamed, not turned into goo, has to have some texture remaining!
How's that grab ya?
kemmler3D
Master Contributor
I fear you may be starting a debate of ferocity yet to be seen on ASR.
Big +1 on the SV ribeye though. To one-up that, dry-aged. Turns out, doable at home without much fuss with some special bags if you can spare the space in your fridge for 40 days. They had rib roasts on sale for $6/lb so I went for it. Came out pretty much as good as anything I've had at a steakhouse.
I fear you may be starting a debate of ferocity yet to be seen on ASR.
Big +1 on the SV ribeye though. To one-up that, dry-aged. Turns out, doable at home without much fuss with some special bags if you can spare the space in your fridge for 40 days. They had rib roasts on sale for $6/lb so I went for it. Came out pretty much as good as anything I've had at a steakhouse.
Have at it, but someone will need to start a new thread.
Have at it, but someone will need to start a new thread.
Awww,it tastes better than the rest of the thread.
(Obviously it won't continue here.)valerianf
Addicted to Fun and Learning
"Did you really, seriously post a picture of a measurement of sibilance and then conclude your post by asserting we can't measure it?"
@kemmler3D
For sure, I say it again: I do not have the equipment to measure it and Amir (or another tester available on the web) does not test it.
Also, you and me we can see a very good report about an AVR (or AMP, or DSP, or DAC) and do not know that there is an issue with sibilance.
To me "Things that cannot be measured" means for this forum community, not for human science with unlimited budget.
@kemmler3D
For sure, I say it again: I do not have the equipment to measure it and Amir (or another tester available on the web) does not test it.
Also, you and me we can see a very good report about an AVR (or AMP, or DSP, or DAC) and do not know that there is an issue with sibilance.
To me "Things that cannot be measured" means for this forum community, not for human science with unlimited budget.
1) you just posted a picture of the evidence. Is it yours or somebody else's? (That's ok, but it kind of looks like you have done it!)
2) amir's testing would find frequency response irregularities AND/OR distortion mechanisms, so why do you claim it's not tested?
oleg87
Addicted to Fun and Learning
What do you mean "Amir does not test it"? An amp causing "sibilance" will show up in frequency response and non-linearities - and *obviously* so, if it's readily apparent to the ear. Amir tests both of those things.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
Sibilance is in a recording (mic placement/choice/EQ) or transducers (especially headphones have a tendency to substantially peak there).
It is caused by an excess of signal in the 6-8kHz range. And I mean several dB at that.
From 8-12kHz peaking there is perceived as 'sharpness'.
When peaking is only slight (a few dB max.) this effect is perceived as 'highly detailed sound'.
It is NOT caused by DACs or amps, for that they would have to peak in that frequency band which none do.
Of course, some 'audiophool' exotic amps might interact with some speakers that have a weird impedance peak in that area might do that.
DSP (when it boosts the 6-8kHz range) can of course do that. For instance when a 'dip' is measured with a microphone and the DSP deciced to 'compensate' for that by boosting several dB in that area where the listener would not have picked up that 'dip'.
Otherwise I see no reason (and you provide no evidence other than your sighted 'personal findings') for electronics to 'create' or 'remove' sibilance (other than using EQ).
But surely since timbre is a combination of the magnitude of the harmonics added to the fundamental and the time signature of their growth and decay, whilst we can not directly measure it we know that any harmonic distortion will change timbre and so will any time related change.
Do we need an additional direct measurement or just better correleation between these measurements and percieved changes in timbre.
The pronunciation depends on the language you are using, it seems. I have always pronounced "timbre" as if it were a French word, so not americanised.
It would be very interesting.
In our music lessons at school in the north of England in the 1960s our music teacher used to play us exerpts of classical music to discuss on an ancient portable gramaphone with ceramic cartridge and a small oval full range speaker but I could readily distinguish an oboe from a cor anglais, and it has always puzzled me since I started searching for better SQ at home in the late 1980s that I could.
I am sure my ears were more discerning at 16 than at 75 but is that all?
You keep making these assertions, yet there’s not a lick of truth to them. Amir and others *do* measure the FR necessary to reveal sibiliance. Is your objection that there should be a spectrogram rather than a FR plot? Because JJ has explained this to you a couple of times. And I have made frequency measurements of my system with a microphone that cost less than $100 and free software. You can even show them in the form of a spectrogram.
Unless you can reply more coherently and stop repeating arguments long-since addressed, I’m inclined to say you are engaging in bad faith.
That should be doable with very limited reproduction quality, as the two instruments have different range, bell shape, harmonic spectrum and directivity, audible even within the typical frequency range of a gramophone. They are belonging to the same family because of the type of reed.
I went down to the local Best Buy Magnolia Room to listen to speakers a few years ago, for some silly reason. I was surprised to discover that a lot of the smaller speakers I listened to indeed made Chuck Daellenbach of the Canadian Brass sound like he was playing a euphonium instead of a tuba. Now, the tuba that Chuck used in those days was a Yamaha 621, which isn't much bigger than a euphonium, but it was a contrabass tuba pitched in C so it has a 16-foot open bugle rather than a euphonium's (tenor tuba) 9-foot bugle. This means that, playing the same note, the C tuba is on a higher harmonic partial and this changes the whole harmonic structure.
The big speakers didn't do it and yes, we were playing the music at elevated levels.
That tells me that the speakers were displaying a noticeable amount of low-order harmonic distortion when pushed, which is something we routinely see in testing, so it's obviously measurable.
The speakers that did that also made the French horn sound like a trombone, which tells me that the distortion pushed up into the higher orders in noticeable amounts, too. It wouldn't take much. Trombones produce a taller harmonic stack than do French horns, unless the horn is pushed enough to get bell resonance. (Aside: Fred Young, a tuba-playing physicist, described the harmonic structure of a trombone as a "hammer on a frying pan," but he was biased.)
These are examples from my own experience where distortion products change timbre. Others might not have noticed it, being not quite as experienced with (especially) live brass instrument sound as I am.
When I hear playback sound with fuzzy sibilants, I'm thinking noticeable distortion in the highest frequencies we normally hear clearly, so the region from 8-12KHz sounds about right to me. But there may be some effect lower, too, around the crossover range for the typical 1" or 3/4" dome. And it may be that the sibilant sits on top of a lower-frequency sound that is producing distortion effects at higher frequencies. This happens in live-sound systems with wireless mics that have dying batteries, and sometimes with really dirty input contacts or leaky capacitors, but I suspect it's nearly always a measurable speaker defect. A speaker that exhibits a distortion peak at a particular frequency will reveal it audibly if pushed hard enough through a frequency sweep that the distortion rises into the range of higher than, say, -20 dB.
Supposedly, my B&K amps are more apt to do this than other amps, but I sure don't hear it.
Rick "approaching the ability to measure those amps on the bench" Denney
What!!!! have you ever listened to them?
The Cor Anglais is basically an alto oboe and has extremely similar timbre for obvious reasons, Their ranges overlap more than they differ.
They are amongst my favourite instruments for their unique timbre and I have been enjoying them for 60 years. My wife's flatmate at the Royal College of music played oboe and cor anglais.
For your information, I have been positioning spot microphones and doing recordings of orchestras with oboe and cor anglais. Including a famous composition which lists the cor anglais as a solo instrument and another one with oboe d´amore (basically a cor anglais in higher tuning). Guess the two! I know the difference and it sounds wonderful.
The timbre in terms of overtones is not similar, neither is the directivity of these two instruments defining how its reverb sounds. Reason being the pear-shaped bell instead of a horn-like one.
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This brings up a very useful point. The differences between instruments are not SMALL, in measurement terms, they are huge, the question is "how huge".
So, the information as to performance, etc, is often very easily discerned at very low bandwidth and very lousy SNR. This is why the Glenn Miller recordings are still a great thing to listen to, all 5kHz of them.
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Fidji
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Lady seems to have much more efficient technique, guy on the left looks like somebody 15 seconds before passing out. I am not very knowledgeable in all the aspects, does not look healthy to have so much pressure going into your head.
“As a result, some evidence was found for musculoskeletal problems, focal dystonia, stress velopharyngeal incompetence, increased intraocular pressure and glaucoma, gastroesophageal reflux disease, lower pulmonary function, disease transmission via instruments, and hearing loss due to noise exposure.”
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