IPunchCholla
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Do you have any citations where this ability to distinguish sibilants between competent amps is proven?
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"Things that cannot be measured"
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Do you have any citations where this ability to distinguish sibilants between competent amps is proven?
As it happens, Yamaha makes the superior modern version of the (ca. 1931) York tuba that was made famous (and given mythical qualities) by Arnold Jacobs, who played it for over four decades in the Chicago Symphony. The so-called Yamayork sells for well north of $40K, easily the most expensive orchestral tuba available today.
They build them by hand and only to order for a very qualified clientele. Partly that is because even though the price is so high, they probably make only a fraction of the profit similar costs would produce making their standard lines.
So, they have at least some track record for trying to make modern versions of famous instruments as halo products, and they have always done so with a long history of signature instruments made for famous performers.
Rick “who plays a Yamaha F tuba originally inspired by the Canadian Brass” Denney
It was a response to an earlier post, that would give it the complete context.
No the answer to the statement is not metaphysical, its human. Do the blind potato experiment. Get 10 people blindfold them. Now cook 10 different variaties of baked potatoe. Use a thermometer to get exactly the same temperature, scales to get exactly the same weight, use a spectrophotometer to get exactly the same colour. Now ask each person to try each. Great they know the weight, they know the temperature they know the colour. What you cannot predict is what they taste never mind if they like it, the measurement, for these factors are irrelevant. Because you don't hear numbers you hear music, and that is a matter of biology and preference.
Yes, but with enough data and testing, if preferences are consistent (which I somewhat doubt), it is possible to identify what was preferred. Eventually, after many subjects, much testing, and a few years of work. Maybe.
valerianf
Addicted to Fun and Learning
"Do you have any citations where this ability to distinguish sibilants between competent amps is proven?"
It is not difficult to ear it: watch a news channel with female anchors.
I switch from a Yamaha AVR that has very rarely some sibilance to a Onkyo RZ30 that is enhancing the sibilance.
A new metric needs to be created to make a hierarchy among the amps.
@amirm Do you know a test that is able to detect the sibilance?
It is not difficult to ear it: watch a news channel with female anchors.
I switch from a Yamaha AVR that has very rarely some sibilance to a Onkyo RZ30 that is enhancing the sibilance.
A new metric needs to be created to make a hierarchy among the amps.
@amirm Do you know a test that is able to detect the sibilance?
So, no, you don't have any. Because, there aren't any.
Imaginary problems are far harder to measure than actual ones.
Audionaut
Major Contributor
Of course not, because you have described a completely meaningless experiment in which too many important parameters are flexible.
You have 10 different potatoes and ten different people. It is completely logical that at least 10 different opinions on potato taste will emerge.
Either you let one person taste the 10 different potatoes or you let 10 people judge the taste of the same potato.
Even in this case, there is no statistical significance, but the results would still be 10 times more meaningful than the experiment you described.
Just visit a large food company and you will see that tastes are also scientifically evaluated in order to create new products for the mass market. For example, 95% of people in industrialized countries prefer the taste of artificially produced strawberry flavoring to that of naturally grown strawberries. Why: Because the flavor is an artificial product created by science that is based firstly on the natural fruit and secondly on the general taste.
And, of course, musical tastes, hearing curves and auditory preferences can also be quantified and qualitatively assessed. All you need is time, the necessary knowledge, personnel and, of course, the financial resources.
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And?
He has nothing except an unsupported and meaningless claim.
valerianf
Addicted to Fun and Learning
"He has nothing except an unsupported and meaningless claim."
Well, it is simple to verify but it request measurement equipments that I do not possess.
Sibilance is between 6khz and 8khz.
A test with a fix frequency generated and a FFT should show the issue.
It is a long time that I am asking Amir to do this test.
It would be very instructive to compare the result between a class D and class AB amp.
Well, it is simple to verify but it request measurement equipments that I do not possess.
Sibilance is between 6khz and 8khz.
A test with a fix frequency generated and a FFT should show the issue.
It is a long time that I am asking Amir to do this test.
It would be very instructive to compare the result between a class D and class AB amp.
valerianf
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Google IA seems to have information that could enhance @SIY advice:
Aperçu IA
En savoir plus
Sibilance, characterized by harsh "s" or "sh" sounds, is a common issue in audio amplifiers and recordings, especially in vocals. It's often caused by the amplification of high frequencies in the 2-8 kHz range, where our hearing is most sensitive. Sibilance can be managed through microphone placement, equalization (EQ), and de-essing techniques.
Aperçu IA
En savoir plus
Sibilance, characterized by harsh "s" or "sh" sounds, is a common issue in audio amplifiers and recordings, especially in vocals. It's often caused by the amplification of high frequencies in the 2-8 kHz range, where our hearing is most sensitive. Sibilance can be managed through microphone placement, equalization (EQ), and de-essing techniques.
Half right. The problem with using AI rather than actually understanding things is that it can't distinguish real well-supported facts (e.g., transducer and recording issues) from errant nonsense (amplifier issues).
Looking at a frequency response graph alone is extremely unlikely to be predictive of sibilance. In a recording you can hear sibilance, you can then take measurements and adjust the recording to lessen sibilance. I suffer from a predilection to sibilance. After 50+ years of suffering this, extensive research and experimentation 2 things are clear. There is limited correlation between the speaker measured response at any frequency and the degree of sibilance observed, I have heard sibilance in speakers with flat responses in the sibilance frequency zone, with neutral and with raised responses. You can play music and listen, then review the measured data and adjust with EQ. Only in really extreme cases is this both measured and observed reliably to the point where the EQ is beneficical on all recordings, i.e it will make other recordings sound dull or lifeless. The second is the measurement of hearing. Working in explosives and munitions manufacturing and having responsibilities for the control of noise, my hearing was checked multiple times each year. There is no correlation with the ability to hear sounds in the sibliance zone and a propensity to observe sibliance. In short any test conducted is most unlikely to be an accurate predictor of sibilance, except listening.
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I don’t recall anyone saying that measurements of speakers, currently done, or those yet to be discovered, if any, would predict what they hear.
The question I presented was whether the measurements of characteristics (and features) of timbre could lead to more refined preference predictions.
So you can in fact cook potatoes a certain way, do properly controlled studies, and determine if people prefer one kind of potatoes to another, or want them prepared one way (Instant, microwave, baked) vs. another. Or you can do it with soda pop, or low fat mayonnaise or any other food. Food science (taste/smell perception) is probably further along by at least 2 orders of magnitude than loud speaker testing (sound perception).
Yes you can cook potatoes to each persons preference, the same way you could create speakers for each persons preference. What you can't do is test a speaker or test a cooked potato and predict if a person not involved, whohas not tasted it or listened to it actually likes it. That is the point. Showing me a speakers frequency response graph or any other data is not remotely predictive of if I will like it or not, that's a matter of personal preference, as you describe that it also is for cooking a potato, thanks.
valerianf
Addicted to Fun and Learning
The modern AVR that we are using are in fact a sound processing unit.
When Dirac Live is engaged, some strange side effects similar to the one's observed by a sound engineer could occur.
Here is an example of sibilance on an audio track and its correction:
We can see a little before and after 3khz a complex filter is applied.
Let us go back to an AVR:
1) My old Yamaha had a processing that was already attenuating the high frequencies by lack of performance.
Adding a manual PEQ filter I was able to fix the sibilance from one of my speakers.
2) New Onkyo RZ30.
As soon as it was powered on, I immediately eared the awful sound in the high frequencies.
I tried many adjustments but nothing is really completely removing the sibilance.
Switching Dirac Live on did not solved the issue and the manual EQ is not active with Dirac.
Anyway the manual EQ is not a PEQ.
May be I can force Dirac Live to apply a filter against the sibilance, but I am not sure that it is possible.
So clearly the propensity of an amplifier to enhance an already existing sibilance (or even to create it as a side effect of its DSP treatement) is not detected by the current measurements applied during the standard audio product tests . We can ear it, but not measure it, for now.
When Dirac Live is engaged, some strange side effects similar to the one's observed by a sound engineer could occur.
Here is an example of sibilance on an audio track and its correction:
We can see a little before and after 3khz a complex filter is applied.
Let us go back to an AVR:
1) My old Yamaha had a processing that was already attenuating the high frequencies by lack of performance.
Adding a manual PEQ filter I was able to fix the sibilance from one of my speakers.
2) New Onkyo RZ30.
As soon as it was powered on, I immediately eared the awful sound in the high frequencies.
I tried many adjustments but nothing is really completely removing the sibilance.
Switching Dirac Live on did not solved the issue and the manual EQ is not active with Dirac.
Anyway the manual EQ is not a PEQ.
May be I can force Dirac Live to apply a filter against the sibilance, but I am not sure that it is possible.
So clearly the propensity of an amplifier to enhance an already existing sibilance (or even to create it as a side effect of its DSP treatement) is not detected by the current measurements applied during the standard audio product tests . We can ear it, but not measure it, for now.
Which means that someone should be explaining to him there is already a thread on this subject and that it’s in the source material.
The “studies” thing is really meaningless unless science has established amplifiers do not create sibilance. I don’t know if there is or there isn’t, it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if there were none. All of the science seems to be on Dessing processing, automatically detecting it, how to prevent or minimize it in recording,
The answer is that his new amp is more revealing of sibilance then his prior amp and it’s very easy for him to satisfy himself of that.
@valerianf
All of your answers can be found in here.
www.audiosciencereview.com
All of your answers can be found in here.
Measurements and sibilance
I have noticed with a few different dacs I own and tried that some seem to exaggerate or dull sibilance. It’s made me wonder what’s going on to cause this issue, is it as simple as the digital filter type or is there something deeper within the measurements that would make sibilance such an...
www.audiosciencereview.com
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