They say speaker cables do not matter ..

[xaviescacs]

But I did not start the thread as an argument, I started it as a question. I see it made no difference.

Well, yes and no. You end your post with a question, but previously you take for granted some facts.

 

[ahofer]

Sure, would the specs and possible measurements tell you upfront what it would sound like?

Stipulating that you have an amp with weird output characteristics: Interaction with load (which typically varies with frequency) will determine frequency response abnormalities. You could predict what it sounded like only by simulating the combination with specific load behaviors (speakers, primarily). It would not be a simple exercise. I suspect there are computer simulations.

 

[sergeauckland]

Sure, would the specs and possible measurements tell you upfront what it would sound like?

The output impedance characteristics of an amplifier, when taken together with the impedance characteristics of the loudspeaker will give you the frequency response expected at the loudspeaker terminals. That frequency response modifies the acoustic frequency response of the loudspeaker in completely predictable ways.

The distortion characteristics of the amplifier, with level, load and frequency will also tell you how the amplifier is expected to work into any loudspeaker who's characteristics are similarly known. What I can't tell you is whether you would like the results.

The problem is that there are so many variables, that it's fairly pointless, in my view, to try and do this characterisation. Far better is to use modern low-distortion amplifiers that are unconditionally stable, and rated for use with loudspeakers of the minimum impedance involved, thus removing any uncertainty as to how they will sound. Avoiding cables with extreme characteristics, whether capacitance, inductance or resistance also helps, just common-or-garden variety copper cables work fine.

S

 

[ahofer]

There's a pattern to these threads:

Newcomer: I hear a difference between these amps/DACs/cables
ASR: We doubt that. Do it blind!!
Newcomer: It's clear as day, I can definitely hear it
ASR: Go for it
Newcomer: You guys are so touchy
ASR: OK, here's a corner case where you could hear a difference (bad-measuring components, lack of power, something's broken)
Newcomer: Can you tell me what that sounds like from measurements?

Then the goalposts begin to behave like particles in an accelerator.

 

[Factolermentation]

It is actually pretty simple. The scientific process is first to determine whether you can tell them apart without you knowing the answer. If you have demonstrated that you can do it reliably, then we can proceed to measurements and look for differences.

This is exactly how consumer sensory science works in the food industry. If a company develops a new product they first do a massive blind Consumer Liking test to see if people respond to the new product better than existing ones. Sample sizes are large to leverage statistical inference. If there is a difference, they move to Descriptive Analysis, which requires a trained panel that works through perceived differences, all of which are related to reference standards. At the end of the DA that panel takes more blind tests to try and ascribe these differences to both the new product and more control samples.

There's some more nuance in this process than what can be explained here but in general this is what massive corporate food companies use regularly to make decisions on product launches.

 

[voodooless]

The amp is designed by Nelson Pass and built to the specs (F5T).

That is quite a bit of a distortion machine:

That in itself will not make cables differences audible though. Output impedance can matter, but it looks like this amp has a suitably low one, so should also be fine. I don't see a reason why the cable should matter.

 

[solderdude]

the F5T has no miller caps, no output inductor (essential when loading capacitive) and no Boucherot filter.
Chances are high a capacitance at its output can cause problems in the feedback loop.
Especially for DIY versions were wiring could not be done optimally.

When it were my build I would put in a series inductor (air core) + boucherot filter.

The inductor is a couple of windings onto a 10ohm (preferable carbon composite) resistor. Use thick wire.
When using high capacitance cables and speakers with dome tweeters this is essential for proper operation

 

[egellings]

Keep R. L and C reasonably low, and it's a done deal as far as speaker cables go. It's not hard to do.

 

[sngreen]

What is the source of this cable?

Someone gave it to me to try it.

 

[VintageFlanker]

Someone gave it to me to try it.

That explains quite a few things. Whoever in intend to "try a cable" hears what he wants to hear.

 

[sngreen]

Keep R. L and C reasonably low, and it's a done deal as far as speaker cables go. It's not hard to do.

Pretty simple thanks.

 

[sngreen]

To sum this thread up; cables should not make difference as long as the amplifier does not react to higher inductance or unusually high capacitance that the cable may have. Some (very sensitive) amplifiers do, most don't.

What is the purpose of braided cable? - high capacitance means lower inductance, which in turn will mean lower resistance for the high notes - better for the long runs. This is how it comes across from what I see posted - could such cables be used for "tuning" the bright system?

 

[Benedium]

The less one knows, the more one imagines.

 

[Chrispy]

The explanation for a twisted wire for speaker cable I've seen from Kimber is that it may help reject rfi/emi rejection but since that's not normally an issue in speaker cable in a home situation....but that was the explanation Kimber gave when he "created" the concept in a solution to a noisy nightclub wiring issue. In home audio highly unlikely to be an issue....

Gene at AH has mentioned the cable is simply a good quality one, measures well and he likes the way it looks and he got a good deal on it at the time (they've raised prices over the years IIRC).

 

[sngreen]

The explanation for a twisted wire for speaker cable I've seen from Kimber is that it may help reject rfi/emi rejection but since that's not normally an issue in speaker cable in a home situation....but that was the explanation Kimber gave when he "created" the concept in a solution to a noisy nightclub wiring issue. In home audio highly unlikely to be an issue....

Gene at AH has mentioned the cable is simply a good quality one, measures well and he likes the way it looks and he got a good deal on it at the time (they've raised prices over the years IIRC).

And not designed to be a filter?

 

[Chrispy]

And not designed to be a filter?

Don't get goofy Danny in my face please....

 

[voodooless]

And not designed to be a filter?

 

[atsmusic]

I am a scientific nobody, but my suggestion for this type of post is for a Moderator to post a link to the Golden Eared thread and immediately lock the thread in question. Why bother with any other replies?

I think that is a good idea but I would not send a link to that post. I would make one related to cables that educate in a nice way. A lot of people are going to be turned off to be talked down to and will just tune right out. This site is for educating people I think?

 

[solderdude]

What is the purpose of braided cable? - high capacitance means lower inductance, which in turn will mean lower resistance for the high notes - better for the long runs. This is how it comes across from what I see posted - could such cables be used for "tuning" the bright system?

Inductance of a cable is not an issue for cable runs under 10m. The longer a cable with low inductance is the more problematic the capacitance becomes. To overcome this issue an inductor should be used before the cable.
This, in turn removes the 'gain' that was had by low inductance.

One cannot 'tune' sytems with cables. For this you need EQ.
A 'bright' system usually has less bass or excess energy around 1-4kHz. No cable can 'filter' bands.
0.5dB 'roll-off' at 20kHz for instance is not noticeable as most folks don't hear that high anyway.

 

[Apesbrain]

Someone gave it to me to try it.

I asked because they appear to be a counterfeit Kimber Kable; even has the same model name.