There is nothing wrong with SINAD chasing

[Sokel]

So why should you chase more SINAD when there's no audible different?

It's the new-found SINAD-headroom probably.
Nothing wrong with headrooms at any hobby but I would prefer the power headroom one, any day of the week, it tends to be way more audible on occasion.

 

[Chester]

I think so long as people know what they are and are not getting, if it gives them joy then it’s all good.

I enjoy this hobby for a number of reasons, one is following the technical excellence we see at times, even though I know I wouldn’t be able to hear any difference.

Others will feel different and a product that delivers just about inaudible is enough. Horses for courses.

 

[Mort]

So why should you chase more SINAD when there's no audible different?

Because It's better engineering. Same reason we use thicker speaker wire than we need to.

I'm curious why SINAD chasing rubs people the wrong way?

 

[Sokel]

I'm curious why SINAD chasing rubs people the wrong way?

It does not.
It's the audibility claims at the abyss of 110dB vs 115dB for example, with speakers at an untreated room and a 100dB SPL before speakers fall apart limit that are often hidden between the words that trigger me for example.
Take a walk around the high performing DAC threads and you'll see what I mean.

Edit: or even better take this walk at the streamer threads and the trend of hooking a DAC just right after them.

 

[Sokel]

..and because is not nice to fool ourselves that what a 20 year old DAC (DAC+ADC more correct) noise looks voltage-wise if sanely set-up:



That's microV at the label, the next line down measures nanoV.
And that's additive for the combined spectrum.

Apply any proper gain-staging you like and tell me where we land.

 

[Tell]

It's the new-found SINAD-headroom probably.
Nothing wrong with headrooms at any hobby but I would prefer the power headroom one, any day of the week, it tends to be way more audible on occasion.

Okay, so how much headroom is enough? 10dB? 20dB? 50dB? 100dB?

Because It's better engineering. Same reason we use thicker speaker wire than we need to.

I'm curious why SINAD chasing rubs people the wrong way?

Okay so why does that matter if the different is not audible? Sure headroom is nice, but why chase even more when you already have enough? How much headroom is enough for you?
i just don't get at all why one would upgrade an already audible perfect thing just because a number is higher. It's a waste of resources, money, time and everything. It IS as stupid as listening to what subjectivists say you should buy.

 

[Sokel]

Okay, so how much headroom is enough? 10dB? 20dB? 50dB? 100dB?

That's personal I guess.
I always take into account the one thing that is often neglected , the medium's own noise.

Some can enjoy the perfect 16-bit silence, to me is way less, I suspect that the classical performances from the 50's -60's I adore have more inherent combined spectrum noise even than the red area of the chart.

 

[Mort]

It does not.

Actually it does seem to rub people the wrong way. There are over 20 pages of results for 'sinad chasing' on this site. It comes up a lot and people use it derogatorily.

i just don't get at all why one would upgrade an already audible perfect thing just because a number is higher. It's a waste of resources, money, time and everything. It IS as stupid as listening to what subjectivists say you should buy.

Perfect example of the sanctimonious objection to SINAD chasing.

 

[Tell]

Perfect example of the sanctimonious objection to SINAD chasing.

But you can't answer my questions?

 

[Oddball]

If you are looking at it in price/year and think that old school amps last 30 years, keep in mind that recapping has costs. When somebody paid $2,200 in 1999 dollars for a Bryston 4B-ST, you better bet that they are going to get it serviced. When a McIntosh or Accuphase starts to hum, it goes to a workbench when a black box AVR would go to the graveyard.

Servicing these modern class D amps would make no sense beyond replacing a bad power supply. The whole amp costs less than the recap cost of one of the old monsters. These modern class D amps are not serviceable, but $100-300 devices were never going to be economic to do so.

I drive a Mercedes and was told the secret of Mercedes reliability. They have a good reputation for reliability but they truthfully aren't reliable as a Toyota. The reason for the reputation is i) it is more reliable than BMW and ii) Mercedes owners get they timely services and do repairs. When you have a 10-15 year old luxury car you still abide by the service interval and a $5,000 repair doesn't total the car. High end amps are the Mercedes of the audio world - you drive them to the dealership instead of driving them into the ground.

Also, a lot of these cheap Chinese amps these days are using better capacitors and better cooling that Hypex and Topping, respectively.

Great point. It just depends on POV. I like to buy things that last. For example, my wife is the queen of buy cheap, often and just pollute the environment. Don't think that either of us is wrong, except for the environmental aspect.

Mercedes is as you say. Given how expensive they are, Porsche starts to make sense at that point and is definitively a step up in engineering and reliability aspect. Never had Toyota, but see where you are coming from. Definitively a smart buy.

 

[TurtlePaul]

So why should you chase more SINAD when there's no audible different?

A complaint about consumerism and wastefulness if different than a compliant about audio.

Replacing any still operational equipment with new equipment is wasteful from a consumerism standpoint and many audiophiles of all persuasions are guilty of this. If the previous equipment goes to a good home and the buyer has the money to spend/waste, I don't see too much harm in this.

Alternatively, if you are buying new equipment, why not buy the best SINAD for the piece of equipment and features you need? We now have DACs and amps with triple digit SINADs that are $100-200 a piece, so it isn't even like there is a cost premium.

From an audio perspective, there is no harm in buying a higher SINAD device, even if there is no benefit beyond a certain level.

 

[-Matt-]

Alternatively, if you are buying new equipment, why not buy the best SINAD for the piece of equipment and features you need? We now have DACs and amps with triple digit SINADs that are $100-200 a piece, so it isn't even like there is a cost premium.

This is just making a wise purchasing decision, it is not what I would call "SINAD chasing".

 

[Chagall]

A complaint about consumerism and wastefulness if different than a compliant about audio.

Replacing any still operational equipment with new equipment is wasteful from a consumerism standpoint and many audiophiles of all persuasions are guilty of this. If the previous equipment goes to a good home and the buyer has the money to spend/waste, I don't see too much harm in this.

Alternatively, if you are buying new equipment, why not buy the best SINAD for the piece of equipment and features you need? We now have DACs and amps with triple digit SINADs that are $100-200 a piece, so it isn't even like there is a cost premium.

From an audio perspective, there is no harm in buying a higher SINAD device, even if there is no benefit beyond a certain level.

That's all true and most would agree, but that isn't SINAD chasing.

@-Matt- you beat me to it!

 

[Multicore]

It's the new-found SINAD-headroom probably.
Nothing wrong with headrooms at any hobby but I would prefer the power headroom one, any day of the week, it tends to be way more audible on occasion.

Agreed. In the famous Is there any music that actually requires 24 bits for replay? thread I was initially arguing: no. But in the end Amir persuaded me that even if I don't want to chase 24 bit playback, it can be a meaningful headroom for an audio-science-phile to chase.

Is there any music that actually requires 24 bits for replay?

Take a 24-bit track. Convert to 16 bits. Convert back to 24 bits. Use DeltaWave to compare original 24-bit track with converted track. I'm getting results such as the following: I understand that it might be useful sticking to 24 bits in the studio (for further processing), but what's the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Tell]

A complaint about consumerism and wastefulness if different than a compliant about audio.

Replacing any still operational equipment with new equipment is wasteful from a consumerism standpoint and many audiophiles of all persuasions are guilty of this. If the previous equipment goes to a good home and the buyer has the money to spend/waste, I don't see too much harm in this.

Alternatively, if you are buying new equipment, why not buy the best SINAD for the piece of equipment and features you need? We now have DACs and amps with triple digit SINADs that are $100-200 a piece, so it isn't even like there is a cost premium.

From an audio perspective, there is no harm in buying a higher SINAD device, even if there is no benefit beyond a certain level.

If I'm buying something like a new DAC for the features then I barely look and the SINAD since it's quite irrelevant. I haven't owned a DAC (either in a MiniDSP, smartphone, motherboard or laptop) in decades that had any audible problems at all.
But yeah sure if I'm picking between two things that has the same features and peice then I might look at SINAD, except that I probably wouldn't since it doesn't tell me much since the actual noise, distortion, IMD and power numbers will give me much more relevant information. Noise+distortion at 1kHz is a quite limited number to base your purchase on.
So yeah SINAD chasing is stupid in many ways, including my argument of wastefulness since it's still very much relevant in audio.

 

[TurtlePaul]

That's all true and most would agree, but that isn't SINAD chasing.

@-Matt- you beat me to it!

If this isn’t SINAD chasing then the other half of my post is about consumerism.

How is SINAD chasing different than driving a 300 hp car to get the kids to soccer practice when the speed limit is 65. Or paying double for a certain brand of audio products to have glowing green faceplates and VU meters. Or buying a shirt that has a certain logo. Or replacing living room furniture because your old ones are still functional but don’t look good in the new space?

It is all consumerism and buying because ‘bigger numbers better’ even if there is no audible improvement does not harm anyone (especially if the old stuff does not end up as landfill).

 

[Chagall]

If this isn’t SINAD chasing then the other half of my post is about consumerism.

How is SINAD chasing different than driving a 300 hp car to get the kids to soccer practice when the speed limit is 65. Or paying double for a certain brand of audio products to have glowing green faceplates and VU meters. Or buying a shirt that has a certain logo. Or replacing living room furniture because your old ones are still functional but don’t look good in the new space?

It is all consumerism and buying because ‘bigger numbers better’ even if there is no audible improvement does not harm anyone (especially if the old stuff does not end up as landfill).

I’d tweak the car analogy slightly. It’s not having a 300 hp car when the speed limit is 65 - that’s just capability headroom. It’s replacing a perfectly capable 300 hp car with a 310 hp one, then a 320 hp one, while driving the same roads, at the same speeds, with no change in experience.

That’s what I mean by SINAD chasing: when SINAD is treated as a proxy for audible sound quality, and decisions are made because a number is higher even though the existing system is already audibly transparent in that setup.

Think i'm done with this thread a lot of disagreement about definitions.

 

[babadono]

At no signal there is a noise difference...at least on my speakers in my room. That said I'm at a "happy for now" level with the Topping LA90Ds and B200s.

 

[Mike123]

So why should you chase more SINAD when there's no audible different?

There's no race. I bought a DAC with a 120 dB SINAD and I'm not chasing anything else. I'm not replacing it with a DAC with 121/122/123 dB SINAD. But I did replace my old DAC with 107 dB SINAD. Simply because, when paired with a high-quality amplifier, the DAC's noise increases by another 20 dB and is audible with good speakers in a quiet room. And many have written about this noise. Having a buffer to avoid worrying about it after spending $200 on it can hardly be called a race. The fact that many adherents of objective audio parameters communicate on this forum doesn't mean we're chasing something crazy and changing equipment every month.

 

[Sokel]

There's no race. I bought a DAC with a 120 dB SINAD and I'm not chasing anything else. I'm not replacing it with a DAC with 121/122/123 dB SINAD. But I did replace my old DAC with 107 dB SINAD. Simply because, when paired with a high-quality amplifier, the DAC's noise increases by another 20 dB and is audible with good speakers in a quiet room. And many have written about this noise. Having a buffer to avoid worrying about it after spending $200 on it can hardly be called a race. The fact that many adherents of objective audio parameters communicate on this forum doesn't mean we're chasing something crazy and changing equipment every month.

Unlike amps, DAC's SINAD is usually determined by its distortion half, not noise.

Here's a couple of glaring examples:

A 76.3dB SINAD DAC , SNR is down to 105dBr.
A 102dB SINAD DAC (or 82dB, depending the channel) has a whooping 115dB of Dynamic Range.

What's left is their distortion who is usually demolished as levels go down to normal playback.
(edit) Example at -3db and -15dB input signal, take a look at harmonics.



The above is just about the rule, we can find corner cases of course but that would be really bad.

That's why we often read some people who write that they never heard any problems the last 20 years, and they are right