There is nothing wrong with SINAD chasing

[amirm]

It is about the transparency in the listener's use-case and regarding the listener's hearing capability, whatever they are. If something is already inaudible, making it "even more inaudible" is pretty much pointless.

The problem with your argument is that you can't prove inaudibility. You are making an assertion that you can't back with research, or controlled listening tests for any specific product being discussed. In sharp contrast, when I talk about threshold of hearing, it is backed by psychoacoustics and extensive peer reviewed research. All explained in my video.

BTW, you may want to get better than inaudible if you use EQ. As you EQ, you need headroom allowance. This will eat into your dynamic range by as much as 10 to 15 dB depending on how aggressive your corrections are. Some auto-EQ systems flatten nulls this way: they pull the rest of the spectrum and then add gain.

 

[amirm]

Here is an actual system with noise which I have reviewed: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tems-rixos-l-review-active-dsp-speaker.35171/

"The one thing I did not like much was fair amount of hiss generated by the amplifier into the tweeter. It is audible to 2 to 3 feet but not at listening distance. If seating distance is too low for the noise to be inaudible, an L-PAD can be put in to lower the sensitivity of the tweeter, or use the lower in line speaker that has less sensitivity. The discrete implementation of a DSP speaker allows more options than when we run into the same with integrated powered monitors."

You all looking at the amp spec would declare it transparent yet here we are. And that was with just one speaker. As I noted above, using them in multi-channel system multiplies the noise.

 

[JiiPee]

You are already wrong in stating that. Noise that is audible without music is quite annoying. We once had a $110K system driving active line array speakers. I was amazed how noisy the ICE powered amp was. You could easily hear it from 6 feet away with nothing playing. With multichannel systems, which this one was, the noise gets multiplied, making it quite annoying. And once you have heard the noise, it is much easier to detect it.

For your test of "either it is audible or not," I can prove systems that are inaudible. You can never prove that using your hand waving.

Your anecdote is beside the point, but whatever... I see zero possibility for this argument to lead to anything meaningful, or positive, so I will not continue commenting this thread.

 

[-Matt-]

SINAD is an incredibly useful metric for us to determine which components have been well designed. Publishing this information is ASR's greatest contribution.


I would define "SINAD chasing" as continually upgrading (e.g. your DAC) because the latest reviewed model achieved 1dB higher score. If people want to do that and feel good about having the latest and greatest, that is up to them. We just need to be clear that the audible returns diminish to zero at some point.


On a slightly different, but related topic...
I find the idea of having a DSP capable AVR (for example) and then disabling all features and running it in pure direct mode (just because this maximises SINAD) is pretty stupid.

2. BUT if you are buying a device that does more than digital-analog conversion, e.g. any DSP box (MiniDSP, AVR, streamer), then it is function which is more important than SINAD.

I now wouldn't want to listen without room correction. Actually, the other day my Audyssey filters were wiped because I was fiddling with the amp assignment. The difference was astounding, far more significant than any small change in SINAD.

The measurement I would love to see (I'm sure it wouldn't be easy) is whole system SINAD. I.e. A measurement of distortion relative to the intended waveform at the listening position (as measured with a microphone). We could have the world championships of room correction!

At the end of the day, it is the fidelity of the sound wave at the listening position that matters, not the fidelity of the electrical signal at some earlier stage in the chain.

 

[Sokel]

The measurement I would love to see (I'm sure it wouldn't be easy) is whole system SINAD. I.e. A measurement of distortion relative to the intended waveform at the listening position (as measured with a microphone). We could have the world championships of room correction!

At the end of the day, it is the fidelity of the sound wave at the listening position that matters, not the fidelity of the electrical signal at some earlier stage in the chain.

We have such a thread but the only one that showed measurements was me, so pretty useless.
One would think that at ASR would have far more samples so to be somehow meaningful.

I wish people were more comfortable about it and see it as fun instead of potential critique.
People can very well tell us what is right but no one can tell us what to like or how to use your gear unless safety and sanity matters arise.

"System" SINAD

Would the concept of "system" SINAD (from source to speakers) be useful in component selection for a good stereo system? Let's assume a listening SPL of 85dB @ 1m, and a room noise floor of around 40dB SPL. Assuming +20dB headroom for signal peaks, and another -20dB noise headroom. A system...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Sokel]

Here is an actual system with noise which I have reviewed: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tems-rixos-l-review-active-dsp-speaker.35171/

"The one thing I did not like much was fair amount of hiss generated by the amplifier into the tweeter. It is audible to 2 to 3 feet but not at listening distance. If seating distance is too low for the noise to be inaudible, an L-PAD can be put in to lower the sensitivity of the tweeter, or use the lower in line speaker that has less sensitivity. The discrete implementation of a DSP speaker allows more options than when we run into the same with integrated powered monitors."

You all looking at the amp spec would declare it transparent yet here we are. And that was with just one speaker. As I noted above, using them in multi-channel system multiplies the noise.

I think we have to differentiate noise (like hiss) at specific gear from noise of active speakers for example.
If we were going by the same metric a lot of very highly regarded active speakers would be out of the picture.

And thinking about for them to be audible as they are at a usual 30dB noise floor environment their SINAD would not be better than 60-70dB, tops.
(I can't stand hiss as well so personally I rule them out but that's only me)

 

[-Matt-]

We have such a thread but the only one that showed measurements was me, so pretty useless.
One would think that at ASR would have far more samples so to be somehow meaningful.

I even replied in that thread but forgot about it
Thanks for the reminder!

 

[Bob from Florida]

And my $25,000 amps are crackling as soon as they warm up. And as I noted, there is no customer service. They are telling to go find my own repair shop. So if you don't mind, we are discussing a specific topic rather than someone's rant about reliability.

Anyone with tinnitus will understand just how annoying background noise can be. At least with noisy electronics, you can get something else.....

@amirm - have you noticed an inverse relationship of cost plus lower production numbers and reliability? Sending heavy high dollar pieces of equipment across the country or world makes little sense.

 

[Oddball]

I think we have to differentiate noise (like hiss) at specific gear from noise of active speakers for example.
If we were going by the same metric a lot of very highly regarded active speakers would be out of the picture.

And thinking about for them to be audible as they are at a usual 30dB noise floor environment their SINAD would not be better than 60-70dB, tops.
(I can't stand hiss as well so personally I rule them out but that's only me)

One of the best things in my system is absolute silence when powered up. Can put my ear on any of 17 speakers (subs included) and there is absolutely nothing coming out of them. While that was the intention when designing the system, I can't say that some luck was not involved as well.

 

[tineared]

How about using the NC502MP in BTL mode?
At 8 ohms, the maximum output reaches 1200 W.
The gain becomes relatively high at 32 dB, but it is still sufficiently quiet.
With high-capacity SMPS power supplies, you sometimes hear transformer hum or power-supply noise, but there is nothing like that here.

Thanks for the suggestion. I prefer to use the latest NCx line and want it to be as quiet as possible, so I'd rather wait for an amp that was designed for the job as I intend for it to be "end game"
My current amp sounded marvelous in my last location, but that room was much smaller with a closer listening position and I was bi-amping it. I now have it in my living room and it is very nice, but not quite so dynamic as it was. I will probably bi-amp it again if the new module isn't released soon, but part of the problem is that I have grown to hate moving around my amps as they are all big and very heavy. Who knew that amps can actually get heavier as they get older?

 

[Oddball]

Thanks for the suggestion. I prefer to use the latest NCx line and want it to be as quiet as possible, so I'd rather wait for an amp that was designed for the job as I intend for it to be "end game"
My current amp sounded marvelous in my last location, but that room was much smaller with a closer listening position and I was bi-amping it. I now have it in my living room and it is very nice, but not quite so dynamic as it was. I will probably bi-amp it again if the new module isn't released soon, but part of the problem is that I have grown to hate moving around my amps as they are all big and very heavy. Who knew that amps can actually get heavier as they get older?

Sorry - but just trying to understand why you need 1.2kW amp? That seems to be in the sub rather than speaker amp category.

 

[Multicore]

Y'all get amps that exceed usage, stream at higher bit rates than audible but somehow 'Sinad chasing' is an epithet.

If I want 100db SINAD, that deserves no worse criticism than buying 500w mono bloicks.

I agree. I have also argued here in the past that we can say the same about the fancy cables. I'll admit expensive cables generally don't add any performance headroom like an amp might but they usually work just great. If we get to gush about the look, weight, feel of the controls, appearance of exquisite engineering etc of an amp then why not for cables?

And how about high sample rates and bit depths? Sure, if you want, and if you take care then it won't do any harm just like having 10x more power than you need or 20 dB more sinad than you need won't do any harm.

 

[tineared]

Sorry - but just trying to understand why you need 1.2kW amp? That seems to be in the sub rather than speaker amp category.

I don't need a 1.4kW amp and that was my original frustration. I was asking for an amp that puts out between 600-1000w, but there are none available from Purifi or Hypex
and evidently none on the way. I guess my situation is an outlier
If I must decide on an amp being possibly underpowered or overpowered, I will choose overpowered every time
My mains are NHT 3.3s (6 Ohm @ 87dB) and a Parasound HCA3500 (350w@8 Ohms)

 

[Keith_W]

One of the best things in my system is absolute silence when powered up.

You are odd, indeed! When I power up my system, I want to listen to music. If I want silence, I power my system down

 

[Barrelhouse Solly]

Aside from the practical aspect, nobody wants extraneous sound, audio is more than designing a structure for maximum load. Car hobbyists buy cars with near dragster level acceleration and top speeds nearly 3 times maximum speed limits. I don't see anything wrong about buying the best design available if that's what you want. I'm a good enough for me person but I understand wanting noise and distortion levels far below the threshold of audibility.

 

[Oddball]

You are odd, indeed! When I power up my system, I want to listen to music. If I want silence, I power my system down

Oddball . System powered up or down should be equally silent thought, which is not always the case.

 

[Oddball]

I don't need a 1.2kW amp and that was my original frustration. I was asking for an amp that puts out between 600-1000w, but there are none available from Purifi or Hypex
and evidently none on the way. I guess my situation is an outlier
If I must decide on an amp being possibly underpowered or overpowered, I will choose overpowered every time
My mains are NHT 3.3s (6 Ohm @ 87dB) and a Parasound HCA3500 (350w@8 Ohms)

So what's wrong with you current situation? Seems like you can raise hell with Parasound.

 

[tineared]

So what's wrong with you current situation? Seems like you can raise hell with Parasound.

Nothing But my NHTs could use a little more power and my amp is almost 30 years old.
I am very impressed with the new generation of Purifi and Hypex modules and am ready to divest from amps that weigh close to 100lbs and will cook bacon

 

[Oddball]

Nothing But my NHTs could use a little more power and my amp is almost 30 years old.
I am very impressed with the new generation of Purifi and Hypex modules and am ready to divest from amps that weigh close to 100lbs and will cook bacon

Well understood. But your amp could go for another 10 years as well?

I am also impressed with D class performance overall. But would not expect it to last 30 years. So that would kind of weight in into the price/year equation.

 

[Holmz]

And my $25,000 amps are crackling as soon as they warm up. And as I noted, there is no customer service. They are telling to go find my own repair shop. So if you don't mind, we are discussing a specific topic rather than someone's rant about reliability.

OK - your crackling amps, my hissing amps, and someone else’s amp with a lot of distortion may all have the same SINAD.
But those three are vastly different in whether we can tolerate them or not.

It’s also usually kinda nice when the amps actually work.