There is no absolute sound. AKA the importance of microphone placement during recording.

[tuga]

I have a different view. On stage or in rehearsal with my friends, the tone of the instruments sounds completely different than it does from the 1st row seats. The string timbre has an extra zingy presence and I can hear everything from sliding fingers to breathing. I've used "alternate" seating at small venues where I'm behind the musicians just out their way, and I've even turned pages for the pianist. In these situations it's that same super close sound. I find that close miced recordings accurately portray this sound. It's too bright and edgy sounding for me to really enjoy, but it is natural.

I understand that but as a regular (pre-Covid) I wish and expect that a recording will be performed in a way that will sound reasonably like I’m sitting in the audience and not on stage. And once you start multi-mic’ing it sounds like you’re standing on several different places of the stage at the same time, and the soundscape or listener perspective turns into something completely surreal (missing the forest for the trees makes sense here).

 

[Frank Dernie]

I've said before, microphones are unreliable narrators.

Me too, the main reason I am sceptical that one can look at peaks on a microphone signal and decide they are audible. You need to listen.

 

[Robin L]

Me too, the main reason I am sceptical that one can look at peaks on a microphone signal and decide they are audible. You need to listen.

My thought---those peaks are doubtless pointing at resonances, but they don't indicate the full spectrum of sound alterations due to those resonances. And, a transducer is a transducer, there are certain distortions baked into the equation.

 

[Frank Dernie]

the Absolute Sound

I take this to be a reproduction of accurate instrumental timbre, not a realistic representation of the overall sound of a concert, which depends where you are sitting and can't be reproduced on 2 speakers anyway.

For that a surround system is needed and even then there is the question of how to accurately record all the spatial info without screwing the timbre and how much flexibility is there to position the speakers before even a good recording won't be accurate when listening.

I have never had super high hopes of accurate, as opposed to impressively stable, imaging from a stereo but timbre is crucial for me and it is a weak area of a lot of speakers I have heard.

 

[clarence]

Airbrushed centerfolds aren't "realistic," but enjoyable nonetheless.

(Other works of art too.)

 

[watchnerd]

I take this to be a reproduction of accurate instrumental timbre, not a realistic representation of the overall sound of a concert, which depends where you are sitting and can't be reproduced on 2 speakers anyway.

Timbre is about as far as I take it, as well, with whatever low distortion dynamic scalability I can get without doing too much harm to timbre.

Horn guys are the other way around.

 

[anmpr1]

Thanks for the link. Overhead, and PZM on the floor were my last choices. For horns, level and pointed at the throat. Mostly on to a bit off axis and midway for the strings. Behind the instrument, never.

I think it was Absolute Sound--they hired a symphony musician to review preamps. The idea was that since he played bassoon or something in an orchestra he would know what an orchestra was supposed to sound like. Until someone wrote in and pointed out that he would certainly know what his bassoon sounded like sitting between the clarinets and oboes, but what would he know about how Center Front Row C for the listener sounded? And what did that have to do with preamps, anyhow?

 

[MRC01]

I find that a recording can capture a convincing 3-D stereo image, or it can capture lifelike timbres of the individual instruments, but not both. Choose your poison. Either approach can make a great recording (or a bad one!), which I prefer depends on my mood.
Besides, what exactly is "lifelike timbre"? It's a moving target depending on position & distance. I'll take anything reasonable, so long as it's not completely artificial.

 

[raistlin65]

I understand that but as a regular (pre-Covid) I wish and expect that a recording will be performed in a way that will sound reasonably like I’m sitting in the audience and not on stage. And once you start multi-mic’ing it sounds like you’re standing on several different places of the stage at the same time, and the soundscape or listener perspective turns into something completely surreal (missing the forest for the trees makes sense here).

Which seat? Which performance venue? If amps and speakers are used, which equipment? Which person is setting up the soundboard when amps are used? And doesn't this rule out most studio albums, since they definitely don't have a live feeling?

I'm not trying to belittle your desire, just wondering what is the standard for the idealized "sitting in the audience" perspective?

After getting into EDM about twenty years go, I let go of my notions of a natural soundstage presentation for music. In fact, I seem to enjoy EDM the most in Auro 2D Surround mode in my 5.2 setup, or with headphones, not in a traditional 2 channel speaker setup.

At the same time, I enjoy wearing my Sennheiser HD660S open headphones more than IEMs or closed headphones when doing things around the house. Whether listening to EDM, rock, vocals, or jazz. While generally larger in soundstage presentation than IEMs or closed headphones, what is commonly described as the "blob" soundstage of the HD6 series headphone around my head seems to replicate the experience of having music more all around me, much like when I worked for 8 years in the bar business. So I know I do have some expectations of soundstage presentation that is tied to real-life experience.

 

[watchnerd]

Besides, what exactly is "lifelike timbre"? .

I usually play a tuning fork at the listening position and then replay a recording of myself tuning my bass.

It's not flawless by any means, but it gives me a sense if things are more-or-less okay, or if it's way off base, across a few octaves.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I find that a recording can capture a convincing 3-D stereo image, or it can capture lifelike timbres of the individual instruments, but not both. Choose your poison. Either approach can make a great recording (or a bad one!), which I prefer depends on my mood.
Besides, what exactly is "lifelike timbre"? It's a moving target depending on position & distance. I'll take anything reasonable, so long as it's not completely artificial.

Cards vs omnis perhaps.

 

[sejarzo]

Ten or more years ago, I had a long private message discussion over on Head-Fi with a violin performance student who was trying to find a setup that would allow him to hear solo violin recordings the way he heard his own violin.

It took quite a while before he would accept that if he heard it "that way" it was only an illusion, as no mics would ever be positioned as his ears are when he was playing. Another thing I noted was that most string musicians on Head-Fi seemed to prefer IEMs on the brighter end of the spectrum, and I always assumed that was for a similar reason as MRC01 noted above.

 

[watchnerd]

. Another thing I noted was that most string musicians on Head-Fi seemed to prefer IEMs on the brighter end of the spectrum, and I always assumed that was for a similar reason as MRC01 noted above.

Well, that could also be because of the rampant hearing loss amongst violin/viola players on the instrument side ear.

Thank goodness I can't fit my bass on my shoulder.

 

[MRC01]

... Another thing I noted was that most string musicians on Head-Fi seemed to prefer IEMs on the brighter end of the spectrum, and I always assumed that was for a similar reason as MRC01 noted above.

It also relates to instrument selection. I have 1 flute that sounds best to me while practicing, but sounds a bit dead/veiled in recordings. I have another flute that sounds too bright & zingy when practicing, but sounds better in recordings. It's amazing how just 8' of distance affects the tone. Plus when you're playing an instrument physically connected to your head (woodwinds, violin), you hear all those resonances that nobody else can.

Well, that could also be because of the rampant hearing loss amongst violin/viola players on the instrument side ear. ...

That's not just violin players, but most professional musicians. I only play non-professionally for fun, but decades of regular playing has given me slightly asymmetric hearing: my R ear is better than my L. That's despite wearing musician's earplugs when practicing & performing for the past 20 yeras. Sadly, back in the 1980s when I was learning, this topic was hardly known or mentioned. Most teachers assumed only electronic/amplified musicians were at risk, not acoustic instrument players. Consequently, a lot of people lost a bit of hearing acuity. Not nearly as bad as those who attend rock concerts, but still...

 

[watchnerd]

Ibut decades of regular playing has given me slightly asymmetric hearing: my R ear is better than my L. That's despite wearing musician's earplugs when practicing & performing for the past 20 yeras. .

Ditto.

 

[sejarzo]

Our son was an alto saxophonist in one of the country's best HS band programs. The marching band typically had 250-270 players; the spring concert band he played in had 115-125. The large rehearsal room was appropriately sized for those 125 players, and the SPL in there on rainy days in the fall when the entire marching band had to stay inside and rehearse in it had to be crazy high.

 

[tuga]

Which seat? Which performance venue? If amps and speakers are used, which equipment? Which person is setting up the soundboard when amps are used? And doesn't this rule out most studio albums, since they definitely don't have a live feeling?

I'm not trying to belittle your desire, just wondering what is the standard for the idealized "sitting in the audience" perspective?

After getting into EDM about twenty years go, I let go of my notions of a natural soundstage presentation for music. In fact, I seem to enjoy EDM the most in Auro 2D Surround mode in my 5.2 setup, or with headphones, not in a traditional 2 channel speaker setup.

At the same time, I enjoy wearing my Sennheiser HD660S open headphones more than IEMs or closed headphones when doing things around the house. Whether listening to EDM, rock, vocals, or jazz. While generally larger in soundstage presentation than IEMs or closed headphones, what is commonly described as the "blob" soundstage of the HD6 series headphone around my head seems to replicate the experience of having music more all around me, much like when I worked for 8 years in the bar business. So I know I do have some expectations of soundstage presentation that is tied to real-life experience.

We are in opposing camps in regard to playback preferences: I neither like headphones nor DSP ambeo-surround effects.

I have learned to accept and enjoy the limitations of 2-channel stereo. A stereo recording is only a representation of reality and, like a photograph, requires some degree of abstraction from the listener.


I don't have any particular seat in mind as long as it's not on stage. Of course a string quartet can be listened to and thus mic'ed closer than an orchestra.

 

[MRC01]

Our son was an alto saxophonist in one of the country's best HS band programs. The marching band typically had 250-270 players; the spring concert band he played in had 115-125. The large rehearsal room was appropriately sized for those 125 players, and the SPL in there on rainy days in the fall when the entire marching band had to stay inside and rehearse in it had to be crazy high.

Just reading that makes my ears hurt - seriously!

 

[raistlin65]

We are in opposing camps in regard to playback preferences: I neither like headphones nor DSP ambeo-surround effects.

You might think you're isolated in a camp. But I also listen to stereo audio with two speakers as well. lol

I have learned to accept and enjoy the limitations of 2-channel stereo. A stereo recording is only a representation of reality and, like a photograph, requires some degree of abstraction from the listener.

That's too bad. There are some excellent multi-channel concert recordings out there that are fantastic with more than two speakers. Definitely gets closer to the live experience.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Ok, here you go... I hunted around my disk and while current sessions are all at work (and I'm on summer break), I found an older version (or some of it). This is not a fancy demo, but here are some files of this activity I found from the last time I ran it (others do it now).
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/15VFC-ZjxxNhw9XIsE1YgMKaf7lN62AIL?usp=sharing

It is an excerpt from a sting qt. recording, there are multiple mics and recording techniques on the session, they are:
- Coles 4038 ribbons (fig-8) in Blumlein config, 4-5-ish metres in front of the group.
- DPA 4060 omnis in AB, 300mm wide, same distance from the band.
- Studio Projects C4 omni, AB, 500-600mm wide, same distance.
- Rode M5 cardioid XY, same distance from the band.
- Neumann KM184s close on the instruments, about 0.5m-1m away, panned in the session.

No processing is done at all apart from level matching (might be a bit out in this section). 24/96 session.

The interest is in listening to the different sound of the mics and different stereo image presented by the different techniques.

It's easy to hear the bass rolloff of the velocity mics (directional: XY, Blumlein), and the better bass from the omni's. There is some proximity effect on the cardioid close mics. You can sum them to mono to hear the comb filtering in the spaced (AB) techniques, and hear a bit of stereo image difference (exaggeration) in the wider AB set. The close mics give the typical sound of such a technique, not very good on this music, but more appropriate on a pop selection.

Have a listen and enjoy! Not sure how long these will remain up, so grab a copy if you want it. This should illustrate Blumlein 88's idea at the end of the original post, and I hope you enjoy the recordings.

Edit: I will look around for the other tracks with other mics and stereo arrangements, I might find them, but they probably won't show as much difference as these do.

Thanks for these. Thought there might be some other comments. While different all were pretty good to me except the Studio Projects C4. It somehow just didn't seem as nice and satisfying as the others. Like the mike got in the way more.

My favorite of those was the Coles 4038 perhaps not surprisingly.

I don't have any excellent ribbons, but plan on getting some when I sell some other microphones I'm not using much.