The wait is over: Genelec 8381A point source main monitor has arrived

[Axo1989]

Yes, those mids are as said used to extend the directivity lower, guess the term "active steering" has here not a unique definition, the Genelec bass steering can change the direction and shape of directivity actively according to the individual needs, which these four probably don't as there is no need.

That's my interpretation of the design also (and my previous use of active was meant to imply variability, as for the W371).

 

[Fredygump]

I've been watching this discussion unfold all day, but was sitting on my hands!

The 4 low-mid drivers are much simpler than you guys are thinking. The combine as a single coaxial driver, and they play together and in phase.

Genelec's comments about directivity are based on the same principle by which all loud speakers have directivity. Loud speakers all "beam" at high frequency, but more accurately their directivity varies depending on the relationship between driver diameter and frequency being reproduced. So it is easy. If you know the frequency range the group of drivers needs to cover, and you know the desired directivity, you just figure out what diameter driver will give the desired directivity at those frequencies. And then place the small drivers within the chosen diameter. But of course you must stay within that frequency range.

I said previously that I'm pretty sure the main reason they have the 4 low-mid drivers is because the front facing woofer simply does not extend high enough to cross over directly to their coaxial. They do not cover a very large frequency range. And I'm sure they are advantageous in having very low distortion, compared to something like a 18" driver that would be required in a traditional pro audio coaxial driver.

 

[Axo1989]

The 4 low-mid drivers are much simpler than you guys are thinking. The combine as a single coaxial driver, and they play together and in phase.

Yes, that's what I mean when I say I think they run from a single amplifier channel (no separate behaviours within the quartet). And function as the outer part of a three-part coaxial.

To me 'active steering' would imply some dynamic feedback process, and 'variable steering' would imply different selections (for dispersion and/or focus distance or offset). I don't think Genelec are doing either with those midrange units.

 

[localhost128]

Soffit mounted speaker has not been used in studios for a long while irrespective of the studio size.

competent studio designers utilize soffit-mounted loudspeakers when applicable. It solves various inherent acoustical issues. Who are you speaking for here when you state they have "not been used for a long while"??

Besides, even though you keep giving reasons why they should, I keep saying, for whatever the reason, soffit speakers are not anymore used in studios. It’s a fact. Then you blame me for not understanding…

this is certainly not a "fact".

Why, there are still side walls, aren’t there? Besides, whatever the reason, they are not used, so that’s that. Free-standing speakers are the norm for a long while.

this statement doesn't make any sense at all. Soffit-mounting of loudspeaker into a high-mass/rigid/non-resonant front wall solve specific acoustical issues irregardless of what is done with other boundaries in the room. Studio design is dependent upon the design requirements. If adhering to LEDE/RFZ principles, side walls would be angled to redirect the first-order sidewall reflection away from the listening position and towards the rear wall diffractal/diffusers.

do you by chance design studios - or what grounds are you making this authoritative, global claims that "they are not used"?

 

[Fredygump]

competent studio designers utilize soffit-mounted loudspeakers when applicable. It solves various inherent acoustical issues. Who are you speaking for here when you state they have "not been used for a long while"??



this is certainly not a "fact".



this statement doesn't make any sense at all. Soffit-mounting of loudspeaker into a high-mass/rigid/non-resonant front wall solve specific acoustical issues irregardless of what is done with other boundaries in the room. Studio design is dependent upon the design requirements. If adhering to LEDE/RFZ principles, side walls would be angled to redirect the first-order sidewall reflection away from the listening position and towards the rear wall diffractal/diffusers.

do you by chance design studios - or what grounds are you making this authoritative, global claims that "they are not used"?

I think we can reconcile this one pretty easily. If we consider market share of the different types of studio monitors in the studio monitor market, the vast majority of those monitors are small, active, prosumer models. This market has grown significantly, if for no other reason than it didn't exist years ago. And it's almost not worth mentioning the fact that home based "recording studios" vastly outnumber the professional studios that have the budget to pay for a purpose built room with built in soffit mount monitors....and who knows, maybe the person who designs the room will also design the monitor speakers...further reducing the number of commercially sold soffit mount monitors?

But at the same time, any blanket statement about what "everyone" is doing is automatically false. I mean, are we talking recording studio? Mixing studio? Mastering? All are different, and the differences are always neglected. (I just know they are different; I don't do any of these things!)

I've been following PresentDayProductions YT channel, and they've been sharing their journey toward mastering for Atmos. It seems like it is legitimately becoming the next big thing.

But by mentioning Atmos, we're talking about mastering. So comments about Atmos/ multi-channel do not apply to the previous steps in the production process!

In the case of mastering for Atmos, I am assuming that soffit mount monitors are not ideal, since you would be combining soffit mount with non-soffit mount speakers. But I suppose the door is open for someone to design an Atmos mastering room where all the channels are soffit mounted? Sounds expensive! I'll let the acousticians work out if that works and how they would accomplish that!

But at the moment, it seems like a pretty safe bet to invest in something like the 8381s, since they can be full range stereo mains with fancy low frequency control, and they can be seamlessly integrated into an Atmos system by combining the other Genelec monitors. I bet that this is what Genelec is banking on. Or they're selling these at a loss just to show off. It could go either way.

 

[sarumbear]

...what grounds are you making this authoritative, global claims that "they are not used"?

Here is the list of new studios built by the largest global studio owner/manager company in the world. Spot the soffit mounted speaker.

Miloco Builds Clients | View some of our recent studio builds

Miloco Builds has completed over 15 successful studio builds in the last few years. See the Miloco Builds Clients and what we built.

milocobuilds.com

Then check the 170 studios in their list and find a studio with soffit mount speakers that was built within the last decade or so.

Recording Studios Directory | Miloco Studios

Miloco represents recording studios all over the world making it easier to find your perfect studio anywhere. Once found, call our experienced bookings team

milocostudios.com

Meanwhile, you may check my bio.

 

[Newman]

Spot the soffit mounted speaker.

The Church Studio 2
Chemical Brothers

My turn: spot the Atmos studio. See if you can find more Atmos studios than soffit-mounted speakers.

Also note that your examples are almost exclusively performance spaces, which is not the same as sound mixing or mastering spaces, except in cases of double duty. That could explain the difficulties in finding relevant setups for a discussion of sound playback quality of final product mixes.

 

[srrxr71]

The Church Studio 2
Chemical Brothers

My turn: spot the Atmos studio. See if you can find more Atmos studios than soffit-mounted speakers.

Also note that your examples are almost exclusively performance spaces, which is not the same as sound mixing or mastering spaces, except in cases of double duty. That could explain the difficulties in finding relevant setups for a discussion of sound playback quality of final product mixes.

Saw a few more too including that beautiful one in Nashville.


Nice site though. So many studio pictures in one place.

 

[Newman]

Genelec themselves provide soffit mount kits…

…and the Genelec website has advice for flush mounting large studio monitors which includes the statement, “Ideally the wall for flush-mounting limits the radiation from the monitor to the front hemisphere only. Flush mounting studio monitors into a wall offers also other important advantages such as eliminating unwanted secondary sound radiation from the monitor cabinet's edges and nearly idealizing the radiation space. The result is minimization of diffraction effects, improved transient response and imaging.”

So Genelec must be pretty disappointed if @sarumbear is right and nobody does it.

 

[Tangband]

Yes, those mids are as said used to extend the directivity lower, guess the term "active steering" has here not a unique definition, the Genelec bass steering can change the direction and shape of directivity actively according to the individual needs, which these four probably don't as there is no need.

They also (probably) get higher spl levels in that area, using 4 drivers. Seems like a clever way to extend the directivity in the low midrange, without the need of a big horn waveguide for those frequencies.

 

[thewas]

They also probably get higher spl levels in that area, using 4 drivers. Seems like a clever way to extend the directivity in the low midrange, without the need of a big horn for those frequencys.

Exactly, they increase also the SPL where it is needed, namely in the lower end of the mids.

 

[tuga]

competent studio designers utilize soffit-mounted loudspeakers when applicable. It solves various inherent acoustical issues. Who are you speaking for here when you state they have "not been used for a long while"??

Examples below:

Northward Acoustics | Portfolio

Northward Acoustics - Acoustics Engineering and Studio Design for Professionals - Portfolio

northwardacoustics.com

 

[sarumbear]

The Church Studio 2
Chemical Brothers

I said: "check the 170 studios in their list and find a studio with soffit mount speakers that was built within the last decade or so." My argument from the start is soffit speakers are not used anymore. I didn't say they were never ever used.

Church Studio was built in the 80s and Chemical Brothers record all their albums this millennia at The Engine Room, which was built early 00s. It looks like you also couldn't find any recently built studio that has a soffit monitor speaker. Thank you for helping me to prove my case

My turn: spot the Atmos studio. See if you can find more Atmos studios than soffit-mounted speakers.

I don't see the relation to the argument, I'm afraid.

Also note that your examples are almost exclusively performance spaces, which is not the same as sound mixing or mastering spaces, except in cases of double duty. That could explain the difficulties in finding relevant setups for a discussion of sound playback quality of final product mixes.

I also said "whatever the reason, they are not used," hence I do not see your counter-argument is relevant.

 

[srrxr71]

They also (probably) get higher spl levels in that area, using 4 drivers. Seems like a clever way to extend the directivity in the low midrange, without the need of a big horn waveguide for those frequencies.

Haha yeah. It was the problem region with the 8361 + w371. That’s why they worked hardest on that area. They knew.

 

[Newman]

I said: "check the 170 studios in their list and find a studio with soffit mount speakers that was built within the last decade or so." My argument from the start is soffit speakers are not used anymore. I didn't say they were never ever used.

Church Studio was built in the 80s and Chemical Brothers record all their albums this millennia at The Engine Room, which was built early 00s. It looks like you also couldn't find any recently built studio that has a soffit monitor speaker. Thank you for helping me to prove my case

You said, “Here is the list of new studios built by the largest global studio owner/manager company in the world. Spot the soffit mounted speaker.” and provided a link called “View some of our recent studio builds”. I went to that link and found the 2 studios, which you now say aren’t recent.

Bizarre.

 

[kma100]

While entertaining, this thread and the other one sound more like Audio Science Argument!

 

[sarumbear]

You said, “Here is the list of new studios built by the largest global studio owner/manager company in the world. Spot the soffit mounted speaker.” and provided a link called “View some of our recent studio builds”. I went to that link and found the 2 studios, which you now say aren’t recent.

Bizarre.

It’s bizarre that you can’t read the posts and understand what is said in its entirety and argue against the re-posting my words in quotes.

Besides, anyone who has any knowledge about studio design enough to argue about their monitor systems should have known that Church Studios is not a recent built studio; it was a refurbishments of an existing, well established studio. Similarly, Chemical Brothers studio is listed as a refit. I can see a habit here of not reading anything properly.

Anyway, I had enough. Go find someone else to argue senselessly — please!

 

[holdingpants01]

You said, “Here is the list of new studios built by the largest global studio owner/manager company in the world. Spot the soffit mounted speaker.” and provided a link called “View some of our recent studio builds”. I went to that link and found the 2 studios, which you now say aren’t recent.

Bizarre.

he just said something mildly controversial and false, but can't backpedal at this point for some reason. Anyway here are a few new or newish studios with flush mounted monitors, I just picked them from google but I worked in some of them as well. For sure there are a lot of home/small studios (which didn't exist before) which use stand alone monitors, but flush mounting was always a more costly solution and still is, so proportionally they are less popular compared to stand alone (just because there are more of the former, not less of the latter), but I'm sure the overall number of new builds is about the same as ever

 

[sarumbear]

Soffit mounted speaker has not been used in studios for a long while irrespective of the studio size.

... whatever the reason, [Soffit mounted speakers] are not used, so that’s that. Free-standing speakers are the norm for a long while.

he just said something mildly controversial and false, but can't backpedal at this point for some reason. Anyway here are a few new or newish studios with flush mounted monitors, I just picked them from google but I worked in some of them as well. For sure there are a lot of home/small studios which use stand alone monitors, but flush mounting was always a more costly solution and still is, so proportionally they are less popular compared to stand alone, but I'm sure the overall number of new builds is about the same as ever

Thank you for proving my case.

 

[holdingpants01]

Thank you for proving my case.

haha sure, I just want for people to see how false your statement was so don't bother with arguing anymore