The Vinyl Frontier

[Wes]

A crap auto drip coffee maker, a terrible analogy for a CD player.

the wood dampens the harsh coffee resonances

 

[Bob from Florida]

I was going to add my own satirical diatribe about the obsolescence of vinyl, but I decided against it. For all of its benefits, too much of this forum seems to exist just to ridicule other audio enthusiasts. I decided not to add my contribution to rhetoric that I find of no benefit.

I notice this a lot. A thread may start out well but soon the criticism starts and it goes downhill from there. When I read the ridicule - and I agree with you that it is ridicule - I remind myself of some things I realized quite awhile ago. First, it is easier for forum posters to be assholes than it would be in person. Things get posted all the time that few would have the nerve to say to someones face. Secondly, while everyone has the ability to be an asshole some folks truly excel at it.

I applaud your decision to leave out the meaningless rhetoric.

Now that I am done philosophizing, I do have a question for the group. Years ago I had done some digitizing of LP's by running an interconnect from my Record out on my preamp to a Sound Blaster sound card in my computer. It worked okay but I am interested in doing some 96 KHZ sample rate at 24 bits to get some of my LP's on the music server. Equipment suggestions and / or direction to a better thread for this would be much appreciated.

 

[rdenney]

I might choose a better ADC. In fact that’s what I did—I replaced a Creative Xfi HD usb sound card with a Benchmark ADC, which was rather an extreme move, perhaps, but I like its detailed gain controls. I also have a much cheaper Presonus USB sound card that would work fine. Mine is also connected into a tape loop of my preamp, which itself has an excellent phono section—abundantly good (at least 20 dB headroom) with respect to the LP itself. I record to peaks of about -3 to -6 dB and then normalize to 0dB peaks using Vinyl Studio. I save those as FLAC files at 96/24 and on playback they sound exactly like the LP itself.

Any decent preamp, integrated amp, or receiver probably has more than good enough specs to do this. If playing LP’s sounds good, then you already your system is good enough. Probably just a decent ADC is all you need.

Rick “whose analog electronics still handily achieve at least 20 dB better performance than LPs” Denney

 

[Wombat]

the pops and crackles on a new vinyl are due to mediocre quality control during production. Specially if they're consistent in their position.

hearing the noise floor is not THAT common, what are using as a phono-stage?

There is the noise-floor of the vinyl and that of the phono pre.

The vinyl substrate grain is inherent. I have to wonder why this not being reproduced by 'better cartridges/TTs' is seen as superior. It goes against that other vinyl support claim that it brings out more detail.

Hey, it doesn't have to be considered better to be enjoyed.
For justifying spending, possibly. Just owning stuff just because you like it can be a buzz for some, without justification..

 

[Frank Dernie]

Years ago I had done some digitizing of LP's by running an interconnect from my Record out on my preamp to a Sound Blaster sound card in my computer. It worked okay but I am interested in doing some 96 KHZ sample rate at 24 bits to get some of my LP's on the music server. Equipment suggestions and / or direction to a better thread for this would be much appreciated.

I did mine using a digital recorder, early on DAT later a Metric Halo device to a file, connected to the output of my phono stage quite some years ago.
I actually stopped because editing and tagging bored me so I decided to leave the LPs in their rack and keep my record player connected in case I wanted to listen to one.
There are loads of transparent recording devices at lower prices these days, my daughter has a Motu which works well for her home studio and wasn't expensive.
I used Purevinyl software but I haven't even launched it in 5 or 6 years, there is probably a wider and cheaper choice these days.

 

[TheBatsEar]

In the meantime, I am going to keep the vinyl hobby for therapeutic purposes. It forces me to tolerate imperfections and be present. I cannot fall asleep or it will just go on and on.

You need an automatic record player, no need to move the tonearm by hand. Some have repeat, some allow you to select tracks, like a cd player. Some even play both sides. Denon DP-47F, that's the one i have. But there are hundreds other models from that time that can be bought for 100€ or less. Always like the style of the Sharp Optonica or Mitsubishi LT05.

 

[digitalfrost]

Equipment suggestions and / or direction to a better thread for this would be much appreciated.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ecause-ripping-just-doesnt-sound-right.20363/

 

[rdenney]

I like Vinyl Studio because it links to an online album database that will put tagged tracks on the recordings of the two sides. You’ll have to adjust the track boundaries, of course, but that’s pretty easy in that software.

Rick “often saving an untracked version first for playing in the car system that inserts gaps between tracks” Denney

 

[JP]

I might choose a better ADC. In fact that’s what I did—I replaced a Creative Xfi HD usb sound card with a Benchmark ADC...

I run either a flat MM or MC stage that feeds a Benchmark ADC-1. The main output of the ADC-1 goes to a Tascam DA-3000 for recording, and the aux output goes to a miniSHARC for digital RIAA, and then on to my Okto DAC8 DSP which is the crossover and "preamp" for my system.

I record flat as I use test records quite a lot and most have no EQ or only partial EQ, and for music I find that de-clicking, etc., is a lot easier before RIAA is applied. After processing I apply RIAA in Audacity using the Nyquist prompt.

 

[levimax]

When ever I get started ripping my Vinyl it doesn't take long for me to get frustrated with the project... tagging the tracks is the biggest hassle but there are others like setting the levels for each record, making sure the record and stylus are clean, worrying about stylus wear, wondering if the new cart / stylus / TT I am thinking about getting will be so much better that I will have to re-rip everything. For the most part I just buy the CD version of the LP and rip that unless it is too expensive or does not exist.

 

[Robin L]

When ever I get started ripping my Vinyl it doesn't take long for me to get frustrated with the project... tagging the tracks is the biggest hassle but there are others like setting the levels for each record, making sure the record and stylus are clean, worrying about stylus wear, wondering if the new cart / stylus / TT I am thinking about getting will be so much better that I will have to re-rip everything. For the most part I just buy the CD version of the LP and rip that unless it is too expensive or does not exist.

While I agree that you're probably better off with a CD [or CD rip] than a needledrop, setting level for recording isn't a hassle if you're recording in 24 bit depth. LPs are lucky to have 13 bits, as regards noise. And normalizing after eq/de-clicking is better in 24 bits. When I was making needledrops regularly, the self-noise of the discs themselves was the biggest audible issue.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Thanks for the suggestions thus far. I was thinking about the ADC and realized I do have a handheld Sony that will capture at 96 by 24 someplace if I can locate. I do remember taking the batteries out to prevent the leaking battery problem so it should be intact. I originally had purchased it to record my Son's college orchestra concerts but never got around to trying the line input. It was somewhat pricey 12 years ago as I recall - maybe a $500 item - which might make it equal to cheaper options today.
The way I used to rip the LP's with the Sound Blaster Platinum - old I know - was an album side at a time. Just like playing a record and I am fine with that as it appeals to productive laziness. A lot of folks have mentioned not being worried about the quality of the rip because of the limited dynamic range or inherent noise floor of vinyl. Two things come to mind immediately. First, if you already have noise the last thing you want to do is add something to that. Secondly, the higher sample rate and greater bit depth minimize digital filter effects. Storage space is a non issue nowadays so no real reason to skimp on sampling. I must really take care of my vinyl because seldom am I bothered by pops and clicks. Cleaning at least once with a good record cleaning machine can work wonders. If you do have a damaged area - it will create a spike that can overload phono stages. The better phono stages deal with this with more headroom and appropriate amount of feedback to have a graceful recovery.
Would it be easier and cheaper to find something to buy on CD or download? Possibly. The reason for me to consider is the fun involved. As long as I stay out of the "more fun than a person should be allowed to have" category, all will be good.

 

[levimax]

While I agree that you're probably better off with a CD [or CD rip] than a needledrop, setting level for recording isn't a hassle if you're recording in 24 bit depth. LPs are lucky to have 13 bits, as regards noise. And normalizing after eq/de-clicking is better in 24 bits. When I was making needledrops regularly, the self-noise of the discs themselves was the biggest audible issue.

Thanks, I was wondering about that. I have records that vary quite a bit in loudness .... when I see the display in Audacity barley moving I get concerned about signal to noise ratio and turn up the ADC input level. I guess since Audacity uses 32bit-float I should not worry and just record everything low and normalize later. Old analogue habits die hard.

 

[Robin L]

Thanks for the suggestions thus far. I was thinking about the ADC and realized I do have a handheld Sony that will capture at 96 by 24 someplace if I can locate. I do remember taking the batteries out to prevent the leaking battery problem so it should be intact. I originally had purchased it to record my Son's college orchestra concerts but never got around to trying the line input. It was somewhat pricey 12 years ago as I recall - maybe a $500 item - which might make it equal to cheaper options today.
The way I used to rip the LP's with the Sound Blaster Platinum - old I know - was an album side at a time. Just like playing a record and I am fine with that as it appeals to productive laziness. A lot of folks have mentioned not being worried about the quality of the rip because of the limited dynamic range or inherent noise floor of vinyl. Two things come to mind immediately. First, if you already have noise the last thing you want to do is add something to that. Secondly, the higher sample rate and greater bit depth minimize digital filter effects. Storage space is a non issue nowadays so no real reason to skimp on sampling. I must really take care of my vinyl because seldom am I bothered by pops and clicks. Cleaning at least once with a good record cleaning machine can work wonders. If you do have a damaged area - it will create a spike that can overload phono stages. The better phono stages deal with this with more headroom and appropriate amount of feedback to have a graceful recovery.
Would it be easier and cheaper to find something to buy on CD or download? Possibly. The reason for me to consider is the fun involved. As long as I stay out of the "more fun than a person should be allowed to have" category, all will be good.

I've still got the Tascam DR-05 and DR-40 handheld recorders. The DR-05 is a bare bones device, DR-40 is 4 channel capable [sorta], has external microphone inputs that double as line inputs, is bigger, weighs more [which is still hardly anything]. The noise floor of both is audibly lower than the noise floor of the phono preamp connected to the cartridge. Forget about the self noise of the LP itself, that's another country. So as far as I'm concerned, they're as good at recording as I need for the purposes. I'd usually dub the discs 24/44.1 [very little to nothing going on above 10khz with worn LPs and all the LPs I dubbed were worn to a greater or lesser extent] at -10db peaks, knowing there would be peaks from clicks that would exceed that. If the disc had a reasonable noise floor, I'd use the pencil tool to draw out the rare click, otherwise use Click Repair first backwards, then forwards. I'd rarely eq LP transfers, but usually filtered 78 transfers.

 

[David Harper]

Two years ago I bought a new Project TT and a bunch of new vinyl. After going through all the nostalgic bullsh**t of setting it up and screwing around with the tonearm, cartridge, etc. I finally started spinning vinyl. I did this for a few weeks and the sound quality was actually surprisingly good.
But I grew weary of all the work required and now my TT is collecting dust in an upstairs closet. Whether I like it or not convenience trumps vinyl.

 

[Gorgonzola]

I bought my last LP about 25 years ago and have never looked back.

I still by CDs but don't play them, i.e. I never play them on a CD player but immediately rip them to files on my NAS-base music library and

 

[levimax]

Two years ago I bought a new Project TT and a bunch of new vinyl. After going through all the nostalgic bullsh**t of setting it up and screwing around with the tonearm, cartridge, etc. I finally started spinning vinyl. I did this for a few weeks and the sound quality was actually surprisingly good.
But I grew weary of all the work required and now my TT is collecting dust in an upstairs closet. Whether I like it or not convenience trumps vinyl.

Convenience is a subjective I thing. I have a DIY system that I can control multiple ways.... from a PC a phone or fully old school with a pre-amp and no screens when playing vinyl. Depending on my mood I often times find that it is more convenient to use my system in old school vinyl mode. All I do is turn it on, put a LP on the deck, and play music with knobs to control volume and tone... no screens, sliders, mice, flashing apps, searching for music and mis-typing etc. Other times I can appreciate the advantages of a screen based streaming and indexed storage system and long playing times without intervention.

 

[imnotdrunk]

I would also categorize "being able to find new music anywhere" under convenience factors. Since getting my turntable working, I've been listening to a lot of records I bought in second hand shops of different kinds during the past few years. Some of this stuff might be difficult to stumble upon as digital files, and I doubt there would be sonic improvements either. By new I mean "new to me" since some of this stuff is.....quite old, for example

 

[Bob from Florida]

I've still got the Tascam DR-05 and DR-40 handheld recorders. The DR-05 is a bare bones device, DR-40 is 4 channel capable [sorta], has external microphone inputs that double as line inputs, is bigger, weighs more [which is still hardly anything]. The noise floor of both is audibly lower than the noise floor of the phono preamp connected to the cartridge. Forget about the self noise of the LP itself, that's another country. So as far as I'm concerned, they're as good at recording as I need for the purposes. I'd usually dub the discs 24/44.1 [very little to nothing going on above 10khz with worn LPs and all the LPs I dubbed were worn to a greater or lesser extent] at -10db peaks, knowing there would be peaks from clicks that would exceed that. If the disc had a reasonable noise floor, I'd use the pencil tool to draw out the rare click, otherwise use Click Repair first backwards, then forwards. I'd rarely eq LP transfers, but usually filtered 78 transfers.

Found my old hand held recorder - wasn't a Sony it is an Olympus LS-10 which can do 24 by 96 captures. So, if this still works and the conversion sounds good I may be all set with zero outlay. If not I did find the below to try.

 

[Wes]

I would also categorize "being able to find new music anywhere" under convenience factors. Since getting my turntable working, I've been listening to a lot of records I bought in second hand shops of different kinds during the past few years. Some of this stuff might be difficult to stumble upon as digital files, and I doubt there would be sonic improvements either. By new I mean "new to me" since some of this stuff is.....quite old, for example

The King of the Zydeco!