The tweeter is the most critical part...

[thewas]

Ok thanks, hadn’t considered reflections.
I need to remember the old adage “Better to remain silent and thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt.”

No worries, if not asking and discussing we would all stay fools.

 

[fineMen]

No worries, if not asking and discussing we would all stay fools.

What do You think, how would a listener disciminate different frequency responses of a speaker using an unknown program?

I think, that the often cited "Blauert'schen Bander" are mostly an artifact of the original investigation of Blauert, and shall not relate to stereophonics without a bullet proof explanation.

Consider a musical instrument e/g castanetes (snappers) of one brand versus another. One would emphasize a Blauert band the other would not. Does it mean, that a human is supposed to localize one brand, say coming more from 'above' than the other? I doubt that.

I argue that Blauert's results just reflect the head related transfer function when evaluated with the very same program material. The prerequisite of same program is not given with stereo, when used at home as inteded.

 

[Blumlein 88]

What do You think, how would a listener disciminate different frequency responses of a speaker using an unknown program?

I think, that the often cited "Blauert'schen Bander" are mostly an artifact of the original investigation of Blauert, and shall not relate to stereophonics without a bullet proof explanation.

Consider a musical instrument e/g castanetes (snappers) of one brand versus another. One would emphasize a Blauert band the other would not. Does it mean, that a human is supposed to localize one brand, say coming more from 'above' than the other? I doubt that.

I argue that Blauert's results just reflect the head related transfer function when evaluated with the very same program material. The prerequisite of same program is not given with stereo, when used at home as inteded.

At one time I spent quite a bit of time adjusting Room EQ curves for friends to suit their preferences for depth, space, etc. Over time I narrowed it down to a few ranges for moving things forward or back or sound bigger or smaller in terms of space, or to increase heft etc. I later ran across Blauert's work and found it pretty much mirrored what I had learned by trial and error. I've never purchased the books he wrote due to their expense. So maybe there are details about it I don't understand.

Now as to castanets working in different bands, no it wouldn't work that way. If you took whichever castanets are in use, adjusting the different bands could alter where they seem to be. Which is a subtle, but important difference.

 

[thewas]

Consider a musical instrument e/g castanetes (snappers) of one brand versus another. One would emphasize a Blauert band the other would not. Does it mean, that a human is supposed to localize one brand, say coming more from 'above' than the other? I doubt that.

My experience is different, this is related to biologic evolution of the human and HRTFs and many sound engineers use those bands as an effect.

About JENS: Sound Localization In The Median Plane - The Science of Sound

In a lot of ways, music mixing is all about creating a spatial impression and placing every instrument in its specific position in a virtual space. Besides the usual suspects like panning and interchannel delays for positioning in the horizontal plane and reverberation and equalization...

science-of-sound.net

The ranges around 400 Hz and 4-5 kHz are usually attributed to the frontal direction, while the bands around 1 kHz and 12 kHz relate to the rear direction. Also, content around 8 kHz can be perceived as elevated. However, treating these frequency ranges will only increase the probability of sound being perceived from these attributed directions. The actual results will vary between individual listeners, especially if the processed sound is presented via loudspeakers rather than headphones.

Nevertheless, what is very consistent among all listeners is an impression of a very sharp and distinct sound source when boosting the frequency bands related to the frontal direction. In contrast, when altering the spectral balance towards the rear-related bands, we get a more diffuse and surrounding spatial impression.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/DieBedeutungDerBlauertschenBaender.pdf

At one time I spent quite a bit of time adjusting Room EQ curves for friends to suit their preferences for depth, space, etc. Over time I narrowed it down to a few ranges for moving things forward or back or sound bigger or smaller in terms of space, or to increase heft etc. I later ran across Blauert's work and found it pretty much mirrored what I had learned by trial and error.

My (rather limited) past experiences are similar.

 

[Schollaudio]

It's interesting to note that a good tweeter can contribute to the dynamic impact of a system. I have a system that I can go back and forth between a three way cone mid\ dome tweeter or a two way with compression driver. The CD gives the system a harder hitting sound.

 

[test1223]

What do You think, how would a listener disciminate different frequency responses of a speaker using an unknown program?

I think, that the often cited "Blauert'schen Bander" are mostly an artifact of the original investigation of Blauert, and shall not relate to stereophonics without a bullet proof explanation.

Consider a musical instrument e/g castanetes (snappers) of one brand versus another. One would emphasize a Blauert band the other would not. Does it mean, that a human is supposed to localize one brand, say coming more from 'above' than the other? I doubt that.

I argue that Blauert's results just reflect the head related transfer function when evaluated with the very same program material. The prerequisite of same program is not given with stereo, when used at home as inteded.

You are right. It is much more complicated since the brain can distinguish direct sound and reflections to some extent.

But the deviation of the direct sound form the later reflections, none of the less, plays an important role in the perception of the stereo image. The Yamahas have a shallow waveguide so that the beaming at about 4Hz is more similar to the beaming at the midrange, while a speaker with a deeper waveguide beams more at 4kHz. The reflections from the recording and the reflections form the room add up and shift the tonality and slightly moves the stereo sound source. Since there is a difference in the perception of direct sound to diffuse sound some speaker sound more realistic in the near field, mid field or far field. But there some unknown factor and research has to keep up to understand everything. E.g. the tonality of the first side wall reflections interfere with all other factors and also have an influence...

Best
Thomas

 

[mhardy6647]

It's interesting to note that a good tweeter can contribute to the dynamic impact of a system. I have a system that I can go back and forth between a three way cone mid\ dome tweeter or a two way with compression driver. The CD gives the system a harder hitting sound.

I just want to go on record as saying that I abhor violence from my hifi equipment. Punchy bass, hard(er) hitting sound, etc.
I am just a pacifict, I guess. May explain my long-lasting affection for Quad ESL-57s. They're kind of... polite. Some might say to a fault.

No offense meant to you in particular, @Schollaudio
Indeed, nice to see you postin' here.

 

[thewas]

I remember someone answering the question which woofer should be used for a fast kickbass with "add a decent tweeter", it wasn't too far from the truth...

 

[Larry B. Larabee]

My experience is different, this is related to biologic evolution of the human and HRTFs and many sound engineers use those bands as an effect.

About JENS: Sound Localization In The Median Plane - The Science of Sound

In a lot of ways, music mixing is all about creating a spatial impression and placing every instrument in its specific position in a virtual space. Besides the usual suspects like panning and interchannel delays for positioning in the horizontal plane and reverberation and equalization...

science-of-sound.net

The ranges around 400 Hz and 4-5 kHz are usually attributed to the frontal direction, while the bands around 1 kHz and 12 kHz relate to the rear direction. Also, content around 8 kHz can be perceived as elevated. However, treating these frequency ranges will only increase the probability of sound being perceived from these attributed directions. The actual results will vary between individual listeners, especially if the processed sound is presented via loudspeakers rather than headphones.

Nevertheless, what is very consistent among all listeners is an impression of a very sharp and distinct sound source when boosting the frequency bands related to the frontal direction. In contrast, when altering the spectral balance towards the rear-related bands, we get a more diffuse and surrounding spatial impression.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/DieBedeutungDerBlauertschenBaender.pdf

My (rather limited) past experiences are similar.

Graph 2/3 look suspiciously like harman's headphone curve. ( I didn't translate).

Working on a relationship between this flat presentation vs depth related to channel separation. (mono representing the flat presentation) and varying crosstalk vs frequency to alter depth impressions.

 

[Larry B. Larabee]

It's interesting to note that a good tweeter can contribute to the dynamic impact of a system. I have a system that I can go back and forth between a three way cone mid\ dome tweeter or a two way with compression driver. The CD gives the system a harder hitting sound.

Has anyone ever heard a dome tweeter that reproduced realistic sounding instruments? It's been 50 years and I haven't heard it yet. Why do I keep buying regular box speakers with dome tweeters? Good question.

 

[Larry B. Larabee]

What do You think, how would a listener disciminate different frequency responses of a speaker using an unknown program?

I think, that the often cited "Blauert'schen Bander" are mostly an artifact of the original investigation of Blauert, and shall not relate to stereophonics without a bullet proof explanation.

Consider a musical instrument e/g castanetes (snappers) of one brand versus another. One would emphasize a Blauert band the other would not. Does it mean, that a human is supposed to localize one brand, say coming more from 'above' than the other? I doubt that.

I argue that Blauert's results just reflect the head related transfer function when evaluated with the very same program material. The prerequisite of same program is not given with stereo, when used at home as inteded.

Would the following correlate to your theory?
1. Standing up - presentation moves up
2. Head back - presentation flat 2d
3. Head forward - presentation depth 3d

 

[dasdoing]

Has anyone ever heard a dome tweeter that reproduced realistic sounding instruments? It's been 50 years and I haven't heard it yet. Why do I keep buying regular box speakers with dome tweeters? Good question.

(EQed) CDs is as realistic as it gets.....above 12Khz-ish it gets washed though. some few instruments like sharp high-hats sound better on domes

 

[fineMen]

My experience is different, this is related to biologic evolution of the human and HRTFs and many sound engineers use those bands as an effect.

O/k, I'm pretty much sure my argument wasn't caught fully.

If the listener of a stereophonic presentation doesn't know what the original sound of an acoustic event was, how could she identify the shift in tonal balance as to evaluate the direction / localization from a sound shift, according to Blauert's Bander? (See also my post #82)

One may get back to Blauert's original publication(s), as to fully appreciate the methodology of the experiment and it's interpretation.

To me, as a very personal opinion, the use of Blauert's Bander as to emphasize the importance of tonal shifts, is just another example of a kind of typical misuse of science in stereo-talk. As long as my opinion holds, I'm serious, though.

 

[thewas]

O/k, I'm pretty much sure my argument wasn't caught fully.

If the listener of a stereophonic presentation doesn't know what the original sound of an acoustic event was, how could she identify the shift in tonal balance as to evaluate the direction / localization from a sound shift, according to Blauert's Bander? (See also my post #82)

I had gotten your argument, my experience is that he doesn't need to know the original tonality, my experience is that some sounds/voices/instruments have different localisation even when recorded nearfield/dry and in mono due to their spectral distribution.

 

[fineMen]

I noticed that I love or hate a speaker mostly because of how the highs and the tweeter sounds.
Obviously you can EQ the highs but it will never change the basic characteristics of how the tweeter sounds.
Obviously bass and mids are also important be less so in my mind( you can always add a sub etc)
Does anyone else feel the same way or am I the only one?

The integration of a tweeter is a difficult task in its own. Think of the infamous 'lobing' due to the spacial separation of sound sources in the x-over region. I often experienced nasty dissatisfaction with a bad design (from my own hands). Another one is the intereference with cabinet edges, which again alter the directivity, which again may alter the impression of coherence.

Simply put, when it comes to directivity, the tweeter is the first to fail

 

[fineMen]

I had gotten your argument, my experience is ...

You answer as if it wasn't the case. But, never mind. I'm o/k.

 

[thewas]

You answer as if it wasn't the case. But, never mind. I'm o/k.

It seems you don't understand me then, but never mind...

 

[fineMen]

It seems you don't understand me then, but never mind...

Standard in academia: replicate the argument, before stating the counter argument

( I did in presenting my understanding of Blauert's as being just head related transfer function--in reverse. )

 

[fredstuhl]

Has anyone ever heard a dome tweeter that reproduced realistic sounding instruments? It's been 50 years and I haven't heard it yet. Why do I keep buying regular box speakers with dome tweeters? Good question.

And yet, a lot of speakers that deliver excellent results in objective tests and that are highly praised by members who could experience them have dome tweeters. I recommend checking them out. I am sure you‘ll find one that would qualify as reproducing realistically sounding instruments.

 

[thewas]

Standard in academia: replicate the argument, before stating the counter argument

Nope but as said it doesn't matter, posts are not just for the two of us.