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The Truth About Vinyl Records

Sal1950

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The International Bureau of Metrology has acceptable limits on these inter lab comparisons before the data can be assumed as truth. Don't know what they are, and it's a top agenda item on the numerous international standards committees.
I can hand hone a cylinder straight and round to within 0.0002" ;)
 

Doodski

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I can hand hone a cylinder straight and round to within 0.0002" ;)
Wowowow. I've seen hand honing a cylinder many times while boring out a motorcycle bore. I never knew that a skilled craftsman could maintain 0.0002" tolerance. That's freakishly accurate
 

EarlessOldMan

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The International Bureau of Metrology has acceptable limits on these inter lab comparisons before the data can be assumed as truth. Don't know what they are, and it's a top agenda item on the numerous international standards committees.
I have worked (as a lawyer) for companies that were certified by Underwriters Laboratories to conduct their own measurements of their products. The various standards organizations (UL, Canadian Standards Association, ISO and the like) provide a valuable benefit by establishing at least some testing methodologies.
 

EarlessOldMan

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I agree, but refrained from asking that question openly. How can we trust his data is correct? The strategy is appropriate, the methodology flawed without the inter laboratory comparison. Uncertainty is derived from the instrument, the operator and the environment primarily.
Personally, I'm not a disciple as such of Amir, but I am of his approach. Its encouraging though that other contributors are also submitting data on the same products, so we get some idea of the measurement uncertainty.
A fundamental principle of a forum such as this would be to appreciate that a measurement without an uncertainty is as meaningless as opinion.
I don't know that Amir's methodology itself is flawed. He is transparent about it, and he responds to people who have raised questions about his methodology.

Replication attempts would help us decide the question of the reliability of Amir's methodology. But that isn't a flaw in his methodology per se.

All observations or conclusions have a margin of error. Replication can help reduce, but not eliminate, the margin of error.
 

Bernard23

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I guess I should have been more explicit. Amir's methodology may indeed be flawless, but data from one source only is potentially flawed for the reasons we mentioned. In any case, one data source of flawless methodology is far more useful than opinion based opinion. After all though, this is just consumer audio, no lives are at risk so no need to get too obsessed by objectivity, but it's an interesting discussion.
 

OldHvyMec

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I never knew that a skilled craftsman could maintain 0.0002" tolerance.
I'm 68 years old and have been making a living as a mechanic since I was 15 years old. At 20 I was a journeyman mechanic For Ford and AMC.
I have built many many gas blocks. As I got older I moved into the heavy duty side and joined Cat, JD, Liebherr, Bauer and a few others.
.0002 is beyond space travel tolerance. .05 is a serious machinist. .005 is one in a million. .0002 is a nice thought but impossible to even measure
with the best bore gages. From morning to afternoon the sized of the bore would change .005 because of ambient temperature alone.
Nice story though. If any engine required tolerances of .005 or better I can't imagine the application. I worked on a turban design for Indy
that was outlawed eventually. .05 tolerance for lateral balance. If the compression is to high things will fail, if its to low you burn huge
amounts of fuel.

Happy motoring. A Motors Manuel has an Engine section. The first rule of a mechanic. It's an engine not a motor. Engines break-in, nothing
is burn-in other than light bulbs and valves (tubes). EVERYTHING else breaks-in. "Smoky Yunick"

Regards
 

Doodski

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I moved into the heavy duty side and joined Cat, JD, Liebherr, Bauer and a few others.
I worked manufacturing snow plows, 12" and 24" bore drilling rigs for water plus oil and gas drills as well as the maintenance equipment and wheeled and tracked all terrain vehicles rated for up to 40 ton over muskeg all day long and wowow what a experience that was. I lovedddd the work. Everything was new and indoors work making the equipment. I worked with heavy duty mechanics side by side and some of them where plain old big solid muscle from wrenching big stuff all day long. I assembled the electrical systems and electronic over hydraulics systems too. Can be dangerous commissioning new gear because the hydraulics has pinhole leaks and a buddy almost lost his lower leg to a ~2800PSI pinhole leak that was like a power washer stream but super high pressure because they over boost the PTOs for more performance. Wonderful work. I miss it. I was kinda sceptical about the bore clearance but I was being gentle as @Sal1950 sometimes makes numbers mistakes and I don't think it was intentional. :D
 

Newman

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I thought Sal's point was that this discussion has entered lala land.
 

Sal1950

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Wowowow. I've seen hand honing a cylinder many times while boring out a motorcycle bore. I never knew that a skilled craftsman could maintain 0.0002" tolerance. That's freakishly accurate
Not really, My 1940s kwik-way boring bar could easily hold to under a thousand .001, maybe even five tenth's .0005, but one hickup and the cylinder could be lost if it was already close to the limit. After boring it straight & round to around .001 of the final size, either a wet or dry rigid hone is used to take out that last .001. IIRC factory spec for a H-D 3.5" cylinder was .0003-.0005. A good experienced tech can do better.
IMG_0815.jpg

Wowowow. I've seen hand honing a cylinder many times while boring out a motorcycle bore.
That's POS flex hone used only for de-glazing, listen to the very beginning of the video.
You'll never hold any tolerance with that or ball hone.
 

Doodski

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Not really, My 1940s kwik-way boring bar could easily hold to under a thousand .001, maybe even five tenth's .0005, but one hickup and the cylinder could be lost if it was already close to the limit. After boring it straight & round to around .001 of the final size, either a wet or dry rigid hone is used to take out that last .001. IIRC factory spec for a H-D 3.5" cylinder was .0003-.0005. A good experienced tech can do better.
View attachment 256191

That's POS flex hone used only for de-glazing, listen to the very beginning of the video.
You'll never hold any tolerance with that or ball hone.
That looks like a vertical lathe with the cutter on the outside end. Lol... It mounts to the head assembly?
 

OldHvyMec

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2800PSI pinhole leak
Think of 30,000psi on a fuel rail and 5500psi 300bar and 50 gallons of hot hydraulic oil spraying the hospital because the operator tore a hose,
hanging it on piece of steal. The operator sprayed 30 doctors and a few others cars with hydraulic oil. Stanford. LOL I remember they wanted me
to sign a release of liability to work on their site. As I started my service truck with all the new hoses I made, they figured out a way to pay me on
the spot OR I would leave. The heck with the cars that got sprayed, the operator screwed it up. Fast does not mean good, though it can. LOL

I also worked on Hydro Blasters. 15-20,000psi with water. The VHP nozzle over 30,000psi. They cut sheeting up to 1/8" like butter with
no chance of sparks. Injector tips are VHP 2000 bar or 30,000psi now with HP rails. That was in 2017.

I haven't built an engine in 15 years or worked for 5. Things change but one thing for sure, I've never met a mechanic that was overpaid.

Drilling is fun to be around when the operator is good. Serious money makers foundational DRILL operators. Nasty, filthy, work though.
I was never so sick of seeing grout on everything and having to clean the shit before working on it. I HATE pictures of CONCRETE or GROUT. LOL

God bless the labors of the world, especially people that are involved with concrete, grout or anything like it. Romans are involved some how!
 

OldHvyMec

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That looks like a vertical lathe with the cutter on the outside end. Lol... It mounts to the head assembly?
Block boring bar very common. Not Common at all in diesel work, normally they have liners. Wet or Dry. You use a bar for fit and finish with a cutter with a finish hone.
That is an old one but they are as good as the operator is willing to pay attention to. No digital anything BUT a good eye and great feel. It's an art to finish an engine correctly. Few actually do it by the book.
 

Doodski

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Think of 30,000psi on a fuel rail and 5500psi 300bar and 50 gallons of hot hydraulic oil spraying the hospital because the operator tore a hose,
hanging it on piece of steal. The operator sprayed 30 doctors and a few others cars with hydraulic oil. Stanford. LOL I remember they wanted me
to sign a release of liability to work on their site. As I started my service truck with all the new hoses I made, they figured out a way to pay me on
the spot OR I would leave. The heck with the cars that got sprayed, the operator screwed it up. Fast does not mean good, though it can. LOL

I also worked on Hydro Blasters. 15-20,000psi with water. The VHP nozzle over 30,000psi. They cut sheeting up to 1/8" like butter with
no chance of sparks. Injector tips are VHP 2000 bar or 30,000psi now with HP rails. That was in 2017.
Those are very high PSI figures. Danger zone stuff just being near them. I worked to a calibrated 20KPSI warranty servicing, assembling, QC and QA making downhole tools that measured pressure, temp, strain and torque on the drill stem. That was interesting too working with high temps and we even had to conform to federal export law that determined the special O-rings that we used could not be sold to all countries in any capacity.
 

Sal1950

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That looks like a vertical lathe with the cutter on the outside end. Lol... It mounts to the head assembly?
It was designed to actually bolt to the block after the heads were removed and bore out the cylinders to the next possible oversize.
Back in the day it often was done while the block was still in the car.
If you look to the right rear of the 4" slab of iron, you'll see a big approx 5" hole with a bunch of small ones around the edge. It was set up for H-D cylinders to be bolted to it on the bottom. Then the bar is lowered and centered over the cylinders hole and after all the appropriate measurements and adjustments, the bar bores the cylinder to about .001 under the desired size. Then you go in with that quality rigid hone and take out the final .001. And yes, if your good you get it straight and round within a few ten thousands. .0002 or 3
Mostly a lost art today, only done now for antique restorations, race machine engine blueprinting, etc.
In todays motorcycle, small engine world, you throw the old cylinder in the garbage and buy a new one with a factory fitted piston. Labor time to repair old stuff like I did is too costly.

That is an old one but they are as good as the operator is willing to pay attention to. No digital anything BUT a good eye and great feel. It's an art to finish an engine correctly. Few actually do it by the book.
Right on point, thanks. That kwik-way model F was in perfect condition and could hold amazing tolerance if you knew what you were doing. I was very lucky to lay hands on it with all the original extras. I about cried when I closed my shop and sold it, like losing a old friend.
Here's few more photos from my sales ad for clearifcation. Also a pretty cool video to make it all clear for anyone interested.
Sorry to take this thread so OT but there's 2 or 4 of them now, all repeating the same stuff over and over so ----------
IMG_0836.jpg


IMG_0830.jpg

 

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Bernard23

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Wow, this club of machine tool operators is more exciting than talking about record decks!
I worked in the auto industry for 30 odd years before joining up with a national measurement institute. A bit like a poacher turned gamekeeper. It's not uncommon to find a business who is using a measurement system to verify their products to spec that uses up nearly all of their uncertainty budget. Then you start to dig into the justification of the part specs and learn that the tolerances are based on an engineers roll of the dice 40 odd years ago, rather than any sound engineering calculations! This isn't just some small family owned operation in a garden shed, I'm talking about the big international tier 1s. Now we're transitioning away from ICEs to batteries and H2 it's even worse. I'm amazed anything works properly tbh.
 

oceansize

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I like vinyl (yeah, I know... ) but this thread has become boring.
 

Sal1950

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I like vinyl (yeah, I know... ) but this thread has become boring.
What is there to be said?

Vinyl playback is full of various distortions no matter what the user does.

But many people like vinyl for their own various reasons.

Then it goes back and forth ad infinitum.
There ain't a damn thing new been said in this vinyl thread or the other 3, in years.
Cause there's just nothing more to say.
I participate simply because we get new members near daily that want to come here
and tell us how wonderful it is and try to teach us something new about vinyl.
Which is impossible LOL
 

OldHvyMec

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I think my valve grinder is a Kwik Way. I have all the tools to re-seat model A,T, and Lheads in the block. 1/2 the valves were in the block 1/2 were in the head.
When your a kid building engines is every mechanics dream. Then reality sets in. LOL. Detroit 2 stroke heads are heavy. LOL O-Ring for head gaskets are a pain
in the field. Now you know why I had 20" arms and a 50" chest at 42. I was a big fellow. 1/2 a dozen operation on my back and neck stopped that foolishness.
I was needed on the hydraulic side about 20 years ago. I really got interested in the design and repair.
Those are very high PSI figures. Danger zone stuff just being near them.
They are very high. That is the reason for the pictures of a persons hand being cut OFF all over the engine. HPR high pressure rail system. They don't even
want you to crack the lines. They tell you to replace the steel lines and VHP ferrule if you break the seal.

Hydraulics for drilling have very high pressures for production drilling. Tiebacks and anchoring systems are all over the world holding back mountains from moving.
60 meters deep with 8" casing and some people are putting in several a day. 300+ BAR. The flushing system is usually an environmental issue. Good LORD can drillers
make a mess like no other on earth. I really miss finding grout in places that it should never ever be. Not to mention the amount I inhaled on a few thousand occasions.

I don't even like things that look like grout come to think of it. Shotcrete is fun too. Drill Techs Specialty. Millions and millions they have made. Great work if you have
a crew that stays healthy. Not likely..
 
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