The Truth about many "Audiophile" Piano Recordings

[JohnnyAudio]

"We get requests" , an excellent live recording by Oscar Peterson Trio is a good example of a very good piano recording.

 

[rdenney]

"We get requests" , an excellent live recording by Oscar Peterson Trio is a good example of a very good piano recording.

In my opinion, any recording of Oscar Peterson is a good example of piano recording, in the photographic tradition of "f/8 and be there!" The only bad recording of Peterson would be the one that was not made (or not published somewhere).

But this is the problem for me. I get lost in the performance and good recording technique becomes conspicuous only by egregious absence.

Rick "usually listens more to the music and less to the recording" Denney

 

[HalSF]

I started reading this thread with some misgivings since it seemed inclined toward a killjoy stance of exposing a negative “truth” about piano recordings and espousing an attitude of listening for problematic wrongness and failure in many recordings.

In fact I think the members have come through with a mixture of knowledge and expertise that explores a multitude of variations and possibilities in piano recordings in a way that’s informative and discerning, and leads me to appreciate and expect that there are no narrow rights or wrongs but a lot of approaches to get the job done.

 

[Robin L]

In my opinion, any recording of Oscar Peterson is a good example of piano recording, in the photographic tradition of "f/8 and be there!" The only bad recording of Peterson would be the one that was not made (or not published somewhere).

But this is the problem for me. I get lost in the performance and good recording technique becomes conspicuous only by egregious absence.

Rick "usually listens more to the music and less to the recording" Denney

Which is why I've got all these Artur Schnabel recordings.

 

[Waxx]

I started reading this thread with some misgivings since it seemed inclined toward a killjoy stance of exposing a negative “truth” about piano recordings and espousing an attitude of listening for problematic wrongness and failure in many recordings.

In fact I think the members have come through with a mixture of knowledge and expertise that explores a multitude of variations and possibilities in piano recordings in a way that’s informative and discerning, and leads me to appreciate and expect that there are no narrow rights or wrongs but a lot of approaches to get the job done.

Off course there is no narrow right or wrong. Recording a artistic performance is largely technical, but not fully. The choices of the engineer and the producer (who chooses the room to record in most cases) have a big influence on the total production. So in a certain way they are also artistic choices. And there are many ways to Rome...

Certainly for a piano, there are many ways depending on the music played. For jazz and pop (in a wide sense of that word) i would always close mic (next to a room mic), but for a classical performance, the best recordings i heared where done with room micing, so you got the sound as you are in a concert hall. Sometimes close miced fill ins were used (espcially in a big orchestral setup), but those are minor parts of what you hear. Close micing a classical piece mostly sounds bad as you don't have the room sound that is a part of a live performance.

 

[Sal1950]

So far, so good. FWIW, I met Bolet a couple of times and, once, sat on a stage seat to his immediate left at Carnegie Hall. That memory is a blur.

Kool !
I had back stage passes for the Nashville Now TV show back around 1988. After the show I got to hang out and BS back stage with Jerry Lee Lewis and Marty Stewart
for an hour or more. I had one hell of a time, that was one unforgettable night !

 

[Cbdb2]

If you want detailed sound you close mic, if you want mush thats mostly room sound you mic from the middle of the hall. You can close mic and make the piano 2 inches wide if you want, you cant far mic and make the piano 8 feet wide.
Theres plenty of classical thats meant to be listened to from 10 to 20 feet away, in a smaller room, small ensembles playing chamber music. How wide do you think a 10 foot grand piano sounds in that situation?

 

[JohnnyAudio]

This is one of my favorite new recordings...

Bruce Brubaker's “Eno Piano” reinterprets Brian Eno's work

This technique is interesting...

electro-magnetic “bows” designed to make piano strings vibrate.

Suspended over the piano strings, the electro-magnetic bows can be turned on directly. They can make a piano string produce its fundamental pitch, or overtones, or more complex and colorful vibrations.

Bruce Brubaker - By This River​

 

[hvbias]

I would love to hear what people think of these recordings from everyone; the thread starter, @Robin L , @Kal Rubinson , any anyone else I am forgetting that has made recordings (I am still digesting this thread having missed it the first time around, I only came across it when I was doing a search).

I am attaching lossless files as the album is not available lossless on Qobuz. These are short clips as to not violate any copyright and shared for educational purposes only. I think the files cover a good range of the piano.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[sejarzo]

University of Rochester has recently released or updated quite a few binaural recordings made with the Neumann KU-100 Binaural Dummy Head.

Here's a link to one playlist of Alexander Kobrin performing Beethoven piano sonatas. IMHO they sound realistic and not fake, at least on my Truthear IEMs and Kali LP-UNF desktop monitors. My "big rig" is currently the space temporarily housing daughter's belongings and out of service LOL.

​

 

[MRC01]

... I get lost in the performance and good recording technique becomes conspicuous only by egregious absence.
Rick "usually listens more to the music and less to the recording" Denney

Which is why I've got all these Artur Schnabel recordings.

This is especially true of most of the jazz recordings I've heard from the 1950s through 1970s, on popular labels like Blue Note (and many others). The piano sounds terrible, like a cheap upright honky tonk recorded on a compact cassette recorder. Recordings from that era could capture saxophone & trumpet fairly well but piano, almost never.

Of course we listen to these recordings because the music, the playing and performance, can be fantastic.

That said, over the years I've always wondered why the piano is so poorly recorded in jazz recordings of that era. Anyone know why?

 

[Robin L]

This is especially true of most of the jazz recordings I've heard from the 1950s through 1970s, on popular labels like Blue Note (and many others). The piano sounds terrible, like a cheap upright honky tonk recorded on a compact cassette recorder. Recordings from that era could capture saxophone & trumpet fairly well but piano, almost never.

Of course we listen to these recordings because the music, the playing and performance, can be fantastic.

That said, over the years I've always wondered why the piano is so poorly recorded in jazz recordings of that era. Anyone know why?

There's plenty of good piano recordings from that era. However, my guess is that the regulation, all that detail work that piano tuners use, wasn't in the budget for a lot of the recordings you're complaining about.

 

[Sal1950]

A shame we lost The Killer in 2022 but the true KING of Rock and Roll was kickin it to us for 87 years.
I'm sure could have taught a few dudes here a couple licks. LOL
Shake It Baby, Shake It

 

[JohnnyAudio]

A shame we lost The Killer in 2022 but the true KING of Rock and Roll was kickin it to us for 87 years.
I'm sure could have taught a few dudes here a couple licks. LOL
Shake It Baby, Shake It

L Gaga borrowed his foot move but in heels.

 

[Sal1950]

L Gaga borrowed his foot move but in heels.

It's easier to hit individual keys. LOL

 

[Kal Rubinson]

A shame we lost The Killer in 2022 but the true KING of Rock and Roll was kickin it to us for 87 years.
I'm sure could have taught a few dudes here a couple licks. LOL
Shake It Baby, Shake It

Yeah. Unforgettable live show at Billy Bob's in the Fort Worth Stockyards back in the mid-80s!

 

[Miley_B]

University of Rochester has recently released or updated quite a few binaural recordings made with the Neumann KU-100 Binaural Dummy Head.

Here's a link to one playlist of Alexander Kobrin performing Beethoven piano sonatas. IMHO they sound realistic and not fake, at least on my Truthear IEMs and Kali LP-UNF desktop monitors. My "big rig" is currently the space temporarily housing daughter's belongings and out of service LOL.

​

Sounds great on the IEMs I have out tonight. A fine example of a natural, not super wide piano IMO. Those Neuman Binaural heads are very good. I've rigged them in spaces for recording a few times but unfortunately I've never had the opportunity to mix down the results.

 

[Sal1950]

IMO Mario of Play Classics Recordings has done some beautiful piano recordings.
And generously given many away here over the years.

Play Classics, classical music at its best

Listen to the world's most transparent recordings. Feel the sound as if you were present on the hall. Enjoy classical music at its best.

www.playclassics.com

In this thread on "Audiophile" recordings I didn't mention that "Play Classics" has a file you can play and set the SPL at your listening chair to
mimic the level Mario heard at the recording mic. There's also info on the distance to the piano if you can mimic that at your MLP.
I don't think you can get any more "audiophile" than that.

"Just to make sure you are listening at the right level...
The SPL file is a stereo file. You have to play it in stereo through both speakers at the same time (just as if you were playing regular music)
Place your mic at your listening position pointing directly up to the ceiling.
While playing this file, adjust the volume of your system until your SPL meter reads 75dB(C) at your listening point.
That would be the volume of the actual performance (listening from the place where the man in red is standing on our sketch)
All our recordings (except for the guitar) are recorded with the same level, so once you calibrate you playback system you will be hearing all the recordings at real live level.
The guitar is 6dB softer than this. If you wanted to get real live levels of the guitar you would have to turn the volume down by 6dB."

PlayClassics album premiere for ASR members

Mario, I like to listen to your files in mono, through 1 speaker. Please take it as a positive comment, not the negative one. That is interesting... We use an ORTF mic setup. That means that the right and left channels have dynamic and timing differences (dynamic because they are oriented in...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Enjoy piano lovers.
Sal1950

 

[Sal1950]

Yeah. Unforgettable live show at Billy Bob's in the Fort Worth Stockyards back in the mid-80s!

What a totally iconic place to have seen him.
I'm SO jealous !

 

[sejarzo]

Sounds great on the IEMs I have out tonight. A fine example of a natural, not super wide piano IMO. Those Neuman Binaural heads are very good. I've rigged them in spaces for recording a few times but unfortunately I've never had the opportunity to mix down the results.

That being said, the placement of the KU100 seems a bit odd compared to where any listener would typically sit during any performance.

Years ago, I read about the Milwaukee Symphony's purchase and use of the KU100 and bought one of their first online releases. I get that one wouldn't want to place the head in the middle of people coughing and shifting around in their seats, but I was rather surprised to read this from the related article that soon appeared in Stereophile, link is below.

"For stereo recordings in our hall, we favor hanging microphones directly over conductor Andreas Delf's head. But for binaural, we hang the head 11' up, 11' or 12' in front of the conductor."

Milwaukee Symphony Goes Binaural

The Milwaukee Symphony Orchestra, which last June became one of the first orchestras in the US to launch its own e-label, has now become the first orchestra to offer download-only binaural recordings.

www.stereophile.com