The Truth about many "Audiophile" Piano Recordings

[Robin L]

What about this performance do you love so much?

While we're at it, here's a sonically compromised but otherwise exquisite rendition of Debussy's Clair de Lune, Walter Gieseking:

 

[sam_adams]

While we're at it, here's a sonically compromised but otherwise exquisite rendition of Debussy's Clair de Lune, Walter Gieseking:

I won't post a YT link to this recording because they are all of poor quality, but this recording:

Suite Bergamasque: Clair De Lune

from

Debussy, François-Joël Thiollier – Clair De Lune And Other Piano Favourites, Naxos – 8.555800

is an excellent recording that has an immediate sonic impression of being recorded in a concert hall or large recital room setting. The key is in the obvious reverberation of the performance space that is captured in the recording.

The Open Goldberg Variations by Kimiko Ishizaka (Open Archive direct download), Aria, is an excellent recording that gives the performer impression in the recording with the added benefit of the reverberant space.

 

[dualazmak]

What about this performance do you love so much?

Again, sorry to be out of the scope of OP @pablolie, but let me continue only a little bit further on this specific performance and recording.

Chaconne for violin by (or attributed to) Tomaso Antonio Vitali.
As I already wrote here and here, even though I have so many recordings of Vitali's Chaconne, after all I always return to this Jacques Thibaud's recording accompanied by piano Tasso Janoupolo;
Jacques Thibaud plays Vitali Chaconne (arr. Charlier), 1936

This recording was/is my very first encounter, almost 60 years ago, with Vitali's Chaconne through 78 rpm SP monaural vinyl record within SP library of my father's.
I myself used to play piano a lot, and therefore I do very much love the Janoupolo's piano accompaniment in this recording; it is just for me, indeed.

Thibaud really loved this violin piece, and he played it so often at the top or finale of his concerts. Even though I know well that his performance style would be very oldish (with so much portamento) from modern-violine-performance point of view, my personal nostalgia and preference have been so tightly fixed on this performance, that is it!
I have several same things and tendencies, i.e. sticking to my first encounters, just like my preference on Brahms "Alto Rhapsody" performed by Christa Ludwig and Otto Kremperer (ref. here.)

And, Thibaud's tragic accidental pass-away in 1953, which also destroyed his prized/beloved 1720 Stradivaious, enhanced my nostalgia and preference on this performance; he was heading to Tokyo where several concerts and recording sessions were scheduled together with Alfred Cortot and Pablo Casals.


Other than this old-style performance, I also love this deeply heat-felt performance by Tomoko Kawada (with Maki Tanaka, piano) in 2011 at Charity Live (at a corner of small shopping center in the earthquake-tsunami district?) for the victims of the Tsunami March 11, 2011 in North-East Japan.

Yes, sometimes music performances tell the background stories and history, and evoke my (our) nostalgia and tears...

 

[beefkabob]

While we're at it, here's a sonically compromised but otherwise exquisite rendition of Debussy's Clair de Lune, Walter Gieseking:

I feel this one a lot more than the other, TBH. It is, in the end, about the music, but music is made of sound. There are all these interesting facets of enjoyment.

 

[Bergante]

I'm unsure as to whether you have played an acoustic grand or upright in person before but from a player's perspective, placing stereo microphones in close proximity to the hammers produces rather accurate results. That is precisely how the piano sounds to the player and is why many pianists will be dissatisfied with a more distant recording.

The problem is, what do you want to achieve?

If you are part of the audience in a concert the sound you hear is really different!

I have been doing sound for jazz concerts for 20 years. What I try to achieve is a natural sound. To the audience it looks like there is no PA equipment, the main source is the live sound of the instruments and I just make up for the natural masking between instruments. I rarely move a fader during the performance except when there is a real problem.

With pianos I varied my approach between a slightly distant miking with hyper cardioids and close miking depending only on how loud the drummer played. For the sax, if possible, I use a MD441 in front of the player, at a distance of up to half a metre. Nothing similar to the microphone almost inside the bell.

This is an example of both (no drummer!:

The recording mixing is not mine, it is a best effort made by a musician and, anyway, it is an incidental recording in order to put a video on Youtube.

Microphones: For the piano (Steinway Model D) two AKG SE300B with ck93 capsules (hypercardioid). For the sax, Sennheiser MD441.


Note. The setup is intended for live sound, the recording is just incidental.

Note 2. The venue is incredibly reverberant. In several years I only used a reverb a couple of times because a sax player wanted it on the monitor.

And here the microphones (same ones) are closer to the hammers because I have a drummer on stage.

The double bass has my secret weapon in front of an f-hole (Cad Equitek e100-2), trumpet with MD441, the drum kit has a pair of Peluso CEMC as overheads and an Audio Technica boundary in front of the kit.

 

[dualazmak]

The Open Goldberg Variations by Kimiko Ishizaka (Open Archive direct download), Aria, is an excellent recording that gives the performer impression in the recording with the added benefit of the reverberant space.

Hello @sam_adams,
Thank you for sharing this Open Archive direct download link; I fully agree with you, just wonderful performance and recording quality, and exciting project, indeed!

From exactly the same nuances and feelings(?) of your point, let me join you by sharing one physical CD album on solo piano classical music.

Here in this post, I too dare not refer/include YouTube or other web links to this amazing physical CD, even though I have already touched on this CD in my post here sharing link to the YouTube clip of whole the album. Iddo Bar-Shai (Iddo Bar-Shaï) plays François Couperin; released only in CD format MIR195 MIRARE, really wonderful recording quality, hall tones/reverberations, and of course amazing performance;

At least for myself, this physical CD is one of the top-five classical piano solo albums I purchased (and/or downloaded) during the past five or six years. Highly recommended, and if possible, I would like to know your thoughts/impressions on the CD album.

 

[Bergante]

CD is a superior medium in so many aspects. If only because a properly mastered CD keeps the proper pauses between movements, which is critical for classical music. Not to mention the CDs I own that are not available on any streaming platform!

 

[pablolie]

Here's yet another of those examples where the orchestra is presented well, yet the piano covers the entirety of of the stage end-to-end But I get over it quickly, I like the performance...

 

[JohnnyAudio]

Daniel Lanois can play...

MY ALL / Daniel Lanois / Player, Piano​

 

[Miley_B]

Here's yet another of those examples where the orchestra is presented well, yet the piano covers the entirety of of the stage end-to-end But I get over it quickly, I like the performance...

I have little knowledge of classical piano and recording but I do appreciate a good bit of width in music generally.
Whilst the piano is clearly unrealistic I rather like it. Do you think this recording would be better/preferable if it had a more realistic piano sound or maybe it’s more enjoyable because of the surreal picture it paints?

Also whilst I’m writing a post I’d like to chime in on the subject of piano purchasing by professional pianists.
I have an acquaintance who is a professional pianist and they have several grand pianos in their possession. They are a mix of long term (permanent) loans, I think by the regional distributor, and discounted purchases over many years.
There is clearly no hard rule with regards endorsement deals etc. and probably comes down to who you know and being in the right place at the right time.

Interesting discussion thread. Thanks.

 

[pablolie]

..
Whilst the piano is clearly unrealistic I rather like it. Do you think this recording would be better/preferable if it had a more realistic piano sound or maybe it’s more enjoyable because of the surreal picture it paints?

I'd have to hear the different versions, probably. I do understand why this is a pretty common practice. I probably would prefer if the piano sounded a bit more integrated into the orchestra, but on the other hand I like to hear Yundi's delivery. Maybe better over the left half rather than the full width. Again... we know why "it's complicated"...

 

[hvbias]

This is roughly where I prefer to sit in Jordan hall, one or two seats to the right of where the blue arrow is. It gives me a good balance of sound and being able to see the pianist's hands. As I posted to the MBL thread, from that distance piano recitals sound more like a mono soundstage.

Anyone care to weigh in on what they think of Audiofon's solo piano recordings?

 

[EJ3]

This is roughly where I prefer to sit in Jordan hall, one or two seats to the right of where the blue arrow is. It gives me a good balance of sound and being able to see the pianist's hands. As I posted to the MBL thread, from that distance piano recitals sound more like a mono soundstage.

Anyone care to weigh in on what they think of Audiofon's solo piano recordings?

I do not know anything about Audiofon's recordings but the layout to me seems to be that they would want the recording to be basically mono (as where you prefer to sit is) with the halls ambiance. In my mind, that is the way a piano should be recorded. Naturally (for me), there are many others that think differently than what I think about it.
But it seems to me that a single piano should not be stereo.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I do not know anything about Audiofon's recordings but the layout to me seems to be that they would want the recording to be basically mono (as where you prefer to sit is) with the halls ambiance. In my mind, that is the way a piano should be recorded. Naturally (for me), there are many others that think differently than what I think about it.

I sat in on one or two of the Audiofon recording sessions in Miami and, although it was a long time ago, I recall the mics placed around Row F and perhaps two Steinways apart. The guy to ask is Peter McGrath.

 

[paulg1]

I truly enjoy Yuja Wang, and most of the recordings are very good. One big disappointment for me was Yuja Wang/Gustavo Dudamel/Los Angeles Philharmonic - Rachmaninoff: The Piano Concertos & Paganini Rhapsody Duetsche Gramophone 2023. The recording of the piano itself is very good, but these are concertos for Orchestra, and the orchestra sounds like it's in another room behind a door. Especially the side drums in the crescendos. In a live setting, those are incredibly dynamic, and the orchestra is actually an integral part of the performance, not background. This is a 32-bit recording to boot, so there is really no excuse for such a wimpy and pathetically compressed recording. My live reference is Symphony Hall, Boston, perhaps the Disney Hall is different?

compare to this Alvotross recording in Concertgebou, it's the Rachmaninoff Paganini, Anna Fedorova. This recording has the correct balance between the piano and the orchestra, and some proper dynamic range.

 

[EJ3]

I truly enjoy Yuja Wang, and most of the recordings are very good. One big disappointment for me was Yuja Wang/Gustavo Dudamel/Los Angeles Philharmonic - Rachmaninoff: The Piano Concertos & Paganini Rhapsody Duetsche Gramophone 2023. The recording of the piano itself is very good, but these are concertos for Orchestra, and the orchestra sounds like it's in another room behind a door. Especially the side drums in the crescendos. In a live setting, those are incredibly dynamic, and the orchestra is actually an integral part of the performance, not background. This is a 32-bit recording to boot, so there is really no excuse for such a wimpy and pathetically compressed recording. My live reference is Symphony Hall, Boston, perhaps the Disney Hall is different?

compare to this Alvotross recording in Concertgebou, it's the Rachmaninoff Paganini, Anna Fedorova. This recording has the correct balance between the piano and the orchestra, and some proper dynamic range.

While not my cup of tea, so to speak, this recording does pull me in a bit & I found it enjoyable. Mainly because it is well recorded.

 

[mSpot]

Anyone care to weigh in on what they think of Audiofon's solo piano recordings?

I've only heard The Art of the Transcription • Live from Carnegie Hall with pianist Earl Wild, which is excellent for both performance and sound quality. I believe that it might be the only Audiofon album on streaming (available on Qobuz, Apple, Tidal, Spotify, etc). The piano is very clear and hall ambience is captured. However the piano sound is very wide and without 3D imaging.

 

[hvbias]

I do not know anything about Audiofon's recordings but the layout to me seems to be that they would want the recording to be basically mono (as where you prefer to sit is) with the halls ambiance. In my mind, that is the way a piano should be recorded. Naturally (for me), there are many others that think differently than what I think about it.
But it seems to me that a single piano should not be stereo.

I haven't heard any of the recordings made from that hall, only concerts. They do apparently record all their concerts but it is only for internal/archival use. Their microphones are hung from the ceiling, you can just make them out in my photo below from a concert last week.

From the photo I attached, I am not directly in line with the soundboard (as I prefer to see the pianist's hands) but the beauty of a concert grand's projection meant it still sounded mono-centered.

I've only heard The Art of the Transcription • Live from Carnegie Hall with pianist Earl Wild, which is excellent for both performance and sound quality. I believe that it might be the only Audiofon album on streaming (available on Qobuz, Apple, Tidal, Spotify, etc). The piano is very clear and hall ambience is captured. However the piano sound is very wide and without 3D imaging.

I wouldn't expect much 3D imaging from a realistically made piano recording. I would come to expect it from an orchestral recording.

 

[rdenney]

I guess I missed this thread when it went around before, but I've enjoyed reading all 14 pages of posts. My observations:

1. I watched and watched and watched the YouTube videos of Yuja Wang's performances, but in all those viewings, I keep forgetting to play "find the microphone." I'll keep at it.

2. It seems to me that I listen to a piano in a room, and during a performance the lid will be up, so what I'm hearing is a mix of direct sound and a loud and very close first reflection within the general . With the mics placed at the side of the open piano (or at the tail), the high strings ring left and the low strings ring center. But I find that at least as often, the high strings sound more distant and the middle strings sound closer. That said, I have to think about that a lot while I'm listening to care much one way or the other.

3. Pianos are designed to be played in rooms--often rather large rooms--and are voiced to sound a bit crisp up close so they will maintain clarity in the room. The room I'm listening in lacks those dimensions, so some of that room sound really does need to be in the recording, it seems to me. Close microphones often miss that effect a bit too much. I learned that when recording myself for a typical Covid construction of a large ensemble made by assembling individually recorded parts played to a click track. I was playing a wind-band transcription of a movement from the Tchaik 4, and was playing my Hirsbrunner HBS193 tuba. This is a kaiser model German-style orchestral tuba of a type known for being penetrating and commanding--from a distance. The recordings sounded awful. I just could not get the microphone far enough away from the instrument to blend the sound properly. But in a hall--even a dead hall--it can really magnify what little I have to offer. I ended up making the recording on the vast Holton 345, a grand orchestral tuba of the American type (made famous by the similar York tuba played by Arnold Jacobs in the Chicago Symphony). The sound from that tuba comes pre-blended, but it struggles to punch out from a stage with no shell in spite of its vastness. I suspect pianos vary more widely than these two tubas, and likewise present very different recording challenges. This is coupled to the many musicians I know who have expressed that they are far more concerned with the quality of their sound out in the room than up close, even to the extent of making a sound up close that might be strident and a little ugly in the near field so that it will carry to the last row. And I rather expect that notion to inform how a great performer chooses to use the pedals on the piano, or even whether to use them at all.

4. George Bolet: I have heard him in concert, playing a Bösendorfer. On that instrument, he positively roared. Absolutely thrilling! I also watched a video of him conducting a master class with a bunch of advanced students. The first student was technically gifted but was not going to become famous--the interpretations were rather prosaic (and I'm an expert in prosaic interpretations). Bolet was polite and friendly--even complimentary--and sent him back to his chair with no further instruction--clearly (but utterly without any detectable indication) not worth his time. The next student was everything the first student was not in terms of musical power and expression. The work he performed had one section that Mr. Bolet suggested he should play a bit faster to show off his excellent technique. The student nodded and played it again--at exactly the same tempo as before. This happened twice. Mr. Bolet concluded: You have not done what I suggest, but you make such a strong case for your approach that I forgive you completely, and then congratulated the student on his musicality. So, there's two testimonials for you as to why he should be admired.

5. Bösendorfer vs. Baldwin: Baldwin was the sponsor of the San Antonio Symphony back in the days when I lived there. The soloist that week was Vladimir Ashkenazy, who apparently concluded during rehearsal that the piano was unsuitable. The symphony cast about for a replacement, and one of the older ladies of the Symphony League offered to loan the symphony her personal Bösendorfer Grand Imperial. (San Antonio is generally a low-income city, but apparently not universally so.) The symphony moved her piano to the Majestic Theater where they performed in those days, tuned it, and then moved it back after the series, providing a complete service on the instrument in the process. At the start the concert, Mr. Ashkenazy came out on the stage and quieted the opening applause. He was provided a microphone, and he told the story. He invited the lady to take a bow, which was, near as I can tell judging from her expression, the primary compensation to her (in addition, probably, to some up-close time with the artist). Then, he positively roared his way through the concert. My conclusion with two live performance samples: Bösendorfer pianos can positively roar. I've never heard that sound from a Steinway or other brand.

6. Kal has lived an interesting life.

7. One of my favorite piano recordings is the three-CD box set: Liszt, the Complete Symphonic Poems, performed by Georgia and Louise Mangos, on the Cedille label. I can and have many times listened to all three CDs in one session. They really convey the orchestral power of the pianoforte. Granted, we have two pianos here, and the microphones seem to have been placed to record both--the pianos seem to me distinguishable in the staging. I'd be interested to hear Robin's assessment of how they were recorded.

Rick "misses @pablolie" Denney

 

[Kal Rubinson]

6. Kal has lived an interesting life.

So far, so good. FWIW, I met Bolet a couple of times and, once, sat on a stage seat to his immediate left at Carnegie Hall. That memory is a blur.