The state of lossy audio in 2022.

[shuppatsu]

AAC is open source; 2017 was many years after Apple set up the iTunes Store.

This may be a definitional issue with competing definitions of open source. To my knowledge, the source has long been available and in fact early versions of encoder programs were available as source-only to avoid licensing problems.

But making the source code available is not enough by the Open Source Initiative’s standard definition. The license must be broad enough to widely permit users to do what they want with the software. Apparently there’s some gray area such that Richard Stallman made a big fuss over it (big surprise). Wikipedia seems to cover it well.

Given that they require a licensing fee for hardware or software that performs decoding, I personally would not consider AAC to be open source. YMMV.

 

[shuppatsu]

Decoding is non-issue but for encoding AAC is still covered by patent.

Interesting. According to Wikipedia it’s the other way around: “No licenses or payments are required for a user to stream or distribute content in AAC format.” But I followed up on the link and the patent holder claims that both end user encoders and decoders require a license. “An AAC patent license is needed by manufacturers or developers of end-user encoder and/or decoder products.”

Edit: I guess I was jumping to conclusions. I suppose streaming and distribution does not necessarily entail encoding.

 

[bennetng]

There are often subtle differences in what is being written on official documents and what is actually happening in real world. Just for those who care so much about freedom and free of charge, the Hi-Res Audio logo in hot-selling 120dB+ SINAD audio products is not free to use as well, and I don't own anything with this logo.

Japan Audio Society | Application process for use of Hi-Res AUDIO logo

オーディオの普及に向けた活動や情報提供を行い、「オーディオ・ホームシアター展」等のイベントの開催など、オーディオに関わるイベントを主宰する日本オーディオ協会の公式WEBサイト

www.jas-audio.or.jp

 

[shuppatsu]

There are often subtle differences in what is being written on official documents and what is actually happening in real world. Just for those who care so much about freedom and free of charge, the Hi-Res Audio logo in hot-selling 120dB+ SINAD audio products is not free to use as well, and I don't own anything with this logo.

True, and especially the case when it comes to intellectual property. That Hi-Res Audio logo is crazy! Funny that they don't display the logo on the web page. Maybe they didn't cough up...

I have those stickers. I've been meaning to peel them but I half assume they'll be the sticky residue type and then I'd have to see if isopropyl would mar the finish.

 

[wiggum]

Decoding is non-issue but for encoding AAC is still covered by patent.

From what I know, the manufacturers(TV, smartphone, etc.) pay per device to the licensing body.

Here is the licensing cost.

License Fees - ViaLa

AAC License Fees Volume (per unit*/annual reset) Per Unit Fee For the first 1 to 500,000 units $0.98 For units 500,001 to 1,000,000 $0.78 For units 1,000,001 to 2,000,000 $0.68 For units 2,000,001 to 5,000,000 $0.45 For units 5,000,001 to 10,000,000 $0.42 For units 10,000,001 to 20,000,000 $0.22...

www.via-la.com

 

[Ambient384]

iTunes does play MP3.
When we were talking about lossy bit rates 96kbps or 128kbps etc three decades ago then AAC probably did sound better than MP3 at those lossy bit rates.

But bandwidth is better and drive space is cheap. Anything in the realm of 150kbps and better probably sounds transparent. And LAME at V3 (the worst variable bit rate setting) is probably transparent for 99% of recorded files and even if there was a difference, the listener probably won’t be able to tell which file he prefers. I choose V2 because it’s one step up and an additional “level of assurance” of complete transparency.

For those anal retentive, any time you rip a CD in standard fashion, you are introducing ERRORS from the CD-ROM’s misread of data from the optical CD. The only way out is to use an error-free reader when converting to wav (Exact Audio Copy).

Yeah that what I find annoying LAME at V2 pretty much transparent with some edge cases that need V0 or V120(200kbps, Helix). AAC & Opus are trying to cling on to a era that long dead where 96kbps VBR would've mattered but these days everyone pretty much LAME at V2 ~ V0 and Flac.

 

[shuppatsu]

Yeah that what I find annoying LAME at V2 pretty much transparent with some edge cases that need V0 or V120(200kbps, Helix). AAC & Opus are trying to cling on to a era that long dead where 96kbps VBR would've mattered but these days everyone pretty much LAME at V2 ~ V0 and Flac.

Who is "everyone?" To my knowledge, all of the big music streaming services use AAC, Opus, and Vorbis for their lossy compression. I personally use AAC for stupid iPhone-related reasons. If I were on Android I would use Opus.

 

[wiggum]

Who is "everyone?" To my knowledge, all of the big music streaming services use AAC, Opus, and Vorbis for their lossy compression. I personally use AAC for stupid iPhone-related reasons. If I were on Android I would use Opus.

Why are you limited to AAC on iPhone? VLC player does support Opus. For streaming media, it doesn't matter much as there isn't any gain in transcoding.

 

[shuppatsu]

Why are you limited to AAC on iPhone? VLC player does support Opus. For streaming media, it doesn't matter much as there isn't any gain in transcoding.

I use the slow motion sinking ship known as iTunes for Windows to manage my phone library as a subset of my home library. iTunes manages the transcoding, but only supports a few formats, AAC being the best for my purposes.

iTunes does some things nicely. I have a playlist which is a subset of my “legacy” collection from when I was a teen and in early 20s, checking out CDs from the library 15 at a time. Then I have a smart playlist which just adds anything new. Since my acquisition habits have slowed down drastically my phone can handle anything new. I don’t actually use those playlists as playlists on my phone; they just serve to populate my portable library.

In vain have I searched for foobar or Musicbee alternatives that “just work” for this purpose. I surprised myself for having VLC already on my phone but I haven’t tried to use it for a long time. As far as I can tell I have to drag and drop individual files or folders rather than let my library manager figure it all out. Anyway, AAC at 128 works fine for my purposes, even if I’d prefer Opus on principle.

 

[Trell]

My ears are getting more lossy for each year that passes.

 

[shuppatsu]

My ears are getting more lossy for each year that passes.

And my transducers (vocal cords) are getting more distorted too! The generation loss is staggering.

 

[wiggum]

I use the slow motion sinking ship known as iTunes for Windows to manage my phone library as a subset of my home library. iTunes manages the transcoding, but only supports a few formats, AAC being the best for my purposes.

iTunes does some things nicely. I have a playlist which is a subset of my “legacy” collection from when I was a teen and in early 20s, checking out CDs from the library 15 at a time. Then I have a smart playlist which just adds anything new. Since my acquisition habits have slowed down drastically my phone can handle anything new. I don’t actually use those playlists as playlists on my phone; they just serve to populate my portable library.

In vain have I searched for foobar or Musicbee alternatives that “just work” for this purpose. I surprised myself for having VLC already on my phone but I haven’t tried to use it for a long time. As far as I can tell I have to drag and drop individual files or folders rather than let my library manager figure it all out. Anyway, AAC at 128 works fine for my purposes, even if I’d prefer Opus on principle.

In that case, increase the bitrate to 192kbps and call it a day. At 192kbps, modern codecs like Opus, AAC, and Vorbis are tied and essentially transparent.

 

[shuppatsu]

In that case, increase the bitrate to 192kbps and call it a day.

If I wanted to dedicate an extra 25GB to my portable music library, I'd do that. But seeing as less than half my home library is on my phone I'd rather add music rather than increase the bitrate.

"128 kbps AAC ought to be enough for anybody" -- Steve Jobs (apocryphal)

 

[fieldcar]

sources for the above image: https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,121579.msg1003462.html#msg1003462

 

[bennetng]

From what I know, the manufacturers(TV, smartphone, etc.) pay per device to the licensing body.

Here is the licensing cost.

License Fees - ViaLa

AAC License Fees Volume (per unit*/annual reset) Per Unit Fee For the first 1 to 500,000 units $0.98 For units 500,001 to 1,000,000 $0.78 For units 1,000,001 to 2,000,000 $0.68 For units 2,000,001 to 5,000,000 $0.45 For units 5,000,001 to 10,000,000 $0.42 For units 10,000,001 to 20,000,000 $0.22...

www.via-la.com

In the case of hardware device the owner had already paid for it. So unless they are going to ask for a refund and prove that they are never going to use the format I don't see where the problem is, except for bragging rights.

There are tons of proprietary stuff regarding hardware, a popular example is HDMI. For example, PC users can always use DP, but If one has to deliberately avoid HDMI hardware they would have much fewer choices on monitors, motherboards, NUCs and so on.

At least the Hi-Res Audio logo is much easier to avoid. A simple USB/SPDIF audio device does not require that logo to operate.

 

[Anthony LoFi]

Does this help the discussion?

 

[Ambient384]

Who is "everyone?" To my knowledge, all of the big music streaming services use AAC, Opus, and Vorbis for their lossy compression. I personally use AAC for stupid iPhone-related reasons. If I were on Android I would use Opus.

MP3 still 95% of the market for downloads/podcasts/more. Hydrogenaudio is kinda contradicting themselves since places still use LAME at V5(~130kbps) for Radio/podcasting. There own large 96kbps face off had V5 reaching 4.6/5 once the golden ears were removed from the total. They even ignore that MP3 seems perform even better in 48KHz so much so LAME almost focused tuning there so It odd them defending Opus being 48KHz, While exploding at doing V0 at 48KHz.

Many DAP's don't even have proper AAC & Vorbis decoders like mine failing to read VBR AAC that reaches 540kbps.

 

[tmtomh]

MP3 still 95% of the market for downloads/podcasts/more. Hydrogenaudio is kinda contradicting themselves since places still use LAME at V5(~130kbps) for Radio/podcasting. There own large 96kbps face off had V5 reaching 4.6/5 once the golden ears were removed from the total. They even ignore that MP3 seems perform even better in 48KHz so much so LAME almost focused tuning there so It odd them defending Opus being 48KHz, While exploding at doing V0 at 48KHz.

Many DAP's don't even have proper AAC & Vorbis decoders like mine failing to read VBR AAC that reaches 540kbps.

It's strange - I just tried searching for up to date market share figures for the various codecs and so far haven't been able to find anything. I did come across a 2004 analysis and mp3 had 72% then. Given the rise of AAC in the past 20 years, I would be surprised if mp3 had anywhere near 95% of the market today. I came across a few links suggesting mp3 remains top in market share, but I would imaging its dominance more in the 60-70% range than the 95% range. I'd love to see some current data, though, as this is just extrapolation and speculation on my part.

 

[krabapple]

B-but it's lossy, my gents!

Doesn't matter if you hear the difference in every track or not, it's enough if you hear it in certain tracks under certain conditions.

If in 20 years you get a strange new device as a player and need your stuff converted to its format, and you have stored lossy, then you are, pardon my german, gefickt.

If the 'strange new device' 's format is lossless, it won't matter.

If it's only lossy, and cannot accommodate lossy audio formats that have already lasted 20 years, why would you use it?

 

[krabapple]

Does this help the discussion?

View attachment 305023

No, mindless anti-mp3 scaremongering like this* doesn't help the discussion but I did see this on my Facebook feed this week.

(*unless I've been Poe'd )