The science - big speaker, small room

[stemfencer]

I'm still struggling to find a good (objective) explanation of how big speaker in small room is an issue.

The best I can find is for equivalent quality/engineered speakers, large speakers will have better (lower) bass extension, and these lower frequencies are harder to control, especially in a small room. However this can be managed with modern room correction DSP and/or room treatment, the latter of those been more difficult and expensive. Is it as simple as that or am I missing anything else?

Other credible reasons I've found for getting smaller speakers, but these are personal or situation related:

• Big speakers more expensive, and in your situation small speakers + sub or other peripheral gear (e.g. room correction or treatment) may give "better" experience
• Big speakers more expensive, so smaller but higher quality speakers may give "better" experience
• Optimal placement of woofers and tweeters are generally different, so having woofers and tweeters/drivers in seperate units facilites better placement, however this comes with it's own set-up challenges.
• Big speakers are harder to drive, need better amplification or may have more distortion on existing/equivalent gear.
• Large speakers are more difficult to place, and physically challenges may exist placing them in optimal position in your room
• Large speakers are aesthetically unpleasing to some or people we cohabitate with
• Cheaper xrossovers in large towers may be inferior to DSP or other technology in bookshelf+sub configurations
• [Edit thanks to @youngho] Small rooms necessitate sitting close to speaker, and larger speakers have issues with lobing and acoustic interference in the near field, hence reason minimum listening distances specified by manufacturers may not be achievable with larger speakers

 

[Purité Audio]

They aren’t it isn’t, but you might look at the current Magico M9 which Showed the difficulties in placing any traditionally designed loudspeaker in a largely untreated room.
Keith

 

[youngho]

One more consideration: Smaller rooms may necessitate sitting closer to the speakers, but larger speakers typically have bigger or more (which may then be spread out further in space relative to the tweeter +/- midrange) lower frequency drivers, which can cause issues with lobing and acoustical interference in the near field, so sitting too close may not allow the sound from the drivers to "integrate" in a predictable way.

 

[PierreV]

My big speakers are roughly 4 meters apart, 1 meter away from the back wall, 3 meters away from the side walls. My listening distance is 4 meters.

I did try stand-mounted smaller speakers + subs in that room. I much prefer the bigger speakers. It may be that I did not integrate my small speakers + subs properly but why would I torture myself if I can have large speakers? Also, the small speakers + stand occupied roughly the same space as the larger speakers, required more wiring for the subs and, I was constantly worrying about knocking them down by accident. That part settled the small speakers in a large room for me.

As far as the large speakers in the small room are concerned, I did try that as well since I have a few pairs of large speakers. In one case, it simply did not work at all, except at a very low level which I perceptually did not like, the room felt completely overloaded and taking over. It worked a bit better with another pair of largish speakers and I think I could have made it work somewhat with some EQ or room treatment, but then I would have had to dedicate that smaller (roughly 5m by 4m) entirely to the sound system.

Since I am perfectly happy with my large speakers in a large room and my smaller speakers in smaller rooms, I don't feel compelled to investigate

 

[Frgirard]

I'm still struggling to find a good (objective) explanation of how big speaker in small room is an issue.

The best I can find is for equivalent quality/engineered speakers, large speakers will have better (lower) bass extension, and these lower frequencies are harder to control, especially in a small room. However this can be managed with modern room correction DSP and/or room treatment, the latter of those been more difficult and expensive. Is it as simple as that or am I missing anything else?

Other credible reasons I've found for getting smaller speakers, but these are personal or situation related:

• Big speakers more expensive, and in your situation small speakers + sub or other peripheral gear (e.g. room correction or treatment) may give "better" experience
• Big speakers more expensive, so smaller but higher quality speakers may give "better" experience
• Optimal placement of woofers and tweeters are generally different, so having woofers and tweeters/drivers in seperate units facilites better placement, however this comes with it's own set-up challenges.
• Big speakers are harder to drive, need better amplification or may have more distortion on existing/equivalent gear.
• Large speakers are more difficult to place, and physically challenges may exist placing them in optimal position in your room
• Large speakers are aesthetically unpleasing to some or people we cohabitate with
• Cheaper xrossovers in large towers may be inferior to DSP or other technology in bookshelf+sub configurations

The distance will depend on the arrangement of the emissive centers and the height of the acoustic axis.

the credible criteria
Big speaker: define what is a big speaker and what is expensive.
Smaller higher quality speaker : Wilson Tunetot and its null measures
You forgot the fact it existe three/ four ways.
Harder to drive: efficiency, impedance. it's not the shoe box with a little efficiency..
Difficult to place: https://oceanwayaudio.com/hr3/ does not fit in all rooms but as long as it goes through the door, there is always a way to arrange except at Wilson
Aesthetically unpleasing: a speaker is ugly by definition but this criterion is not objective
Cheaper crossover: it's the objective definition of the dsp.

Anyway without a good piece, headphones are recommended, fortunately the WAF often tempers this turgidity of the ego.
50Hz by a 18" at 90 dBspl cause the same issues with a 6" at 90 dBspl without the distortion.


in the professional world where the link size speaker/size room is a myth

Why do you need a BIG Studio Monitors even in the small Control Rooms? - Gearspace.com

Hello everybody, I'll show you an illustration why I recommend A BIG Monitoring Loudspeakers even for small Control Rooms. For the beginning, loudspeak

gearspace.com

 

[PierreV]

in the professional world where the link size speaker/size room is a myth

Why do you need a BIG Studio Monitors even in the small Control Rooms? - Gearspace.com

Hello everybody, I'll show you an illustration why I recommend A BIG Monitoring Loudspeakers even for small Control Rooms. For the beginning, loudspeak

gearspace.com

Well, not a myth. His argument is that you need big speakers to mix stuff with low-frequency content. So far so good.
But, leaving aside the issue of distance and driver integration, low-frequency content is precisely what is the problem in small untreated domestic rooms.

 

[dasdoing]

10 years ago or so noone would room-eq.
my 12" sub produces a ridiculous boost in the lower half in my small room. without room-eq it would sound terrible

 

[Willem]

Indeed, and in small rooms the Schroeder frequency is higher, hence room modes are at higher and more obnoxious frequencies where dsp equalization only works at narrower listening positions than at lower frequencies. I am all in favour of deep bass, subwoofers and dsp eq, but in small rooms I think it is best not to bother and just live with small monitors.

 

[stemfencer]

Indeed, and in small rooms the Schroeder frequency is higher, hence room modes are at higher and more obnoxious frequencies where dsp equalization only works at narrower listening positions than at lower frequencies.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "dsp equalization only works at narrower listening positions than at lower frequencies"

 

[Purité Audio]

You should only EQ standing wave derived bass peaks which are minimal phase typically found in the very low bass below 300Hz say.
Keith

 

[Willem]

DSP eqalization is only correct at one location in the room. At other locations it potentially makes matters worse. But the problem is much smaller at deep bass frequencies where wavelength of the sound is longer. Using multiple subs will help, however.

 

[Willem]

the very low bass below 300Hz say

I would probably limit myself to even lower frequences. This is precisely the reason why full range equalization is problematic for room correction (but not if you have to equalize the speaker rather than the room).
So to crudely summarize:
Deep bass needs a large room to avoid room modes at higher frequencies, and room modes at lower frequencies are easier to equalize
Small rooms have problems because the room modes are at higher frequencies and hence are harder to equalize succesfully.
Multi subs and multisub equalization by e.g. MSO are a good way to escape the dilemma, but only up to a point.

 

[Frgirard]

Well, not a myth. His argument is that you need big speakers to mix stuff with low-frequency content. So far so good.
But, leaving aside the issue of distance and driver integration, low-frequency content is precisely what is the problem in small untreated domestic rooms.

i wrote 50Hz by a 18" at 90 dBspl cause the same issues with a 6" at 90 dBspl without the distortion.
i repeat it's a myth.

 

[Da cynics]

Is it the same situation as closed back headphones in a way?