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The Scaling Myth

WickedInsignia

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By far the most prevalent argument in headphones for spending money on "better" amps is the idea that gear will scale. For example: The HD600 is generally considered a headphone that scales....or at least according to many laymen in the hobby.

However in my experience talking with others here and some light investigation there seems to be no reason to believe a headphone will sound "better" at the same volume, whether it be through an iPhone or a $4000 amp.
I for one use the HD600 below 50% volume on an iPhone. I have been reassured it won't sound better with an amp, especially since no clipping is incurred at such an SPL (and indeed, it sounds very good as-is).
Hilariously I've also had people tell me a 32 Ohm 110 DB/V headphone I just bought will sound better with amping. At that point I think most anyone who knows their stuff would tune out.

That being said, is there a technical case for scaling? Is it completely myth, or is there anything to support the idea that an amp produces more than just volume headroom? Such as in the case of impedance curves...would there be any reason to believe a high-impedance driver would sound closer to the "intended" FR with more power behind the same listening level?
 

Vini darko

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I usually read it as the headphone is good at showing up any significant difference between amps where they exist (impeadance, noise floor, distortion profiles, stereo tracking , power). Cost has nothing to do with it really. And alot of it is imaginary placebo. But happy delusions are fun delusions.
 

Maki

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By far the most prevalent argument in headphones for spending money on "better" amps is the idea that gear will scale. For example: The HD600 is generally considered a headphone that scales....or at least according to many laymen in the hobby.

However in my experience talking with others here and some light investigation there seems to be no reason to believe a headphone will sound "better" at the same volume, whether it be through an iPhone or a $4000 amp.
I for one use the HD600 below 50% volume on an iPhone. I have been reassured it won't sound better with an amp, especially since no clipping is incurred at such an SPL (and indeed, it sounds very good as-is).
Hilariously I've also had people tell me a 32 Ohm 110 DB/V headphone I just bought will sound better with amping. At that point I think most anyone who knows their stuff would tune out.

That being said, is there a technical case for scaling? Is it completely myth, or is there anything to support the idea that an amp produces more than just volume headroom? Such as in the case of impedance curves...would there be any reason to believe a high-impedance driver would sound closer to the "intended" FR with more power behind the same listening level?
Headroom is important for parametric EQ. In that sense, headphones do scale because you can make greater "boosts" to fill in dips or add more bass with a better amp. I have a feeling that's not what they're talking about though.
 
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WickedInsignia

WickedInsignia

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Headroom is important for parametric EQ.
I’m talking about vanilla, no EQ. Intended FR as per the default manufacturing of the headphone.

I am interested in why you would get more EQ headroom with more power at the same SPL but I will leave that for a different thread since it seems like a deep topic.
 

Racheski

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For those of us not as familiar with the term, can someone provide a definition of scaling in this context?
 
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WickedInsignia

WickedInsignia

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For those of us not as familiar with the term, can someone provide a definition of scaling in this context?
Scaling is an “invented” term by the hobby, but essentially:
The concept of a headphone’s sound increasing in quality (transient response, timbre, fidelity, extension, FR closer to the companies’ intended target) at the exact same volume level when using more powerful or more expensive amps.
 
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WickedInsignia

WickedInsignia

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I feel blessed walking out of Head-Fi.

S.
It does seem to be a fairly pervasive phenomenon there. It's almost like you can't encounter a post on a headphone without seeing the phrase "It will sound better with an amp of course".
I also believe this accounts for a lot of the reason people even bother to buy amps or more expensive amps. I have yet to come across a headphone I couldn't drive out of my iPhone 6 to a satisfactory sound level (I know they exist, I just haven't plugged one in!).
If I'm hitting a desirable SPL without stressing the source, what reason could there be for an amp?
 

paolomo

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It's almost like you can't encounter a post on a headphone without seeing the phrase "It will sound better with an amp of course".
True. That is especially frequent in reviews and buying suggestions. It caters to the insecurity of potential buyers who are like “why would I buy these headphones if they don’t need my unnecessarily powerful amplifier, which I bought thinking it would make a big difference?”.
And since it’s so common, everyone starts repeating that. I love my HD650, but no, they don’t sound any different if I drive them with monster combos (I tried :D)
 
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WickedInsignia

WickedInsignia

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To play devil's advocate it could be argued that there may be some science behind the suggestion, such as the impedance curve on the HD600. I don't know much about how this works though, and what it could mean for the sound (which is one of the reasons I posted the topic).
Would this actually result in an altered sound on a lesser-powered device?
 

paolomo

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To play devil's advocate it could be argued that there may be some science behind the suggestion, such as the impedance curve on the HD600. I don't know much about how this works though, and what it could mean for the sound (which is one of the reasons I posted the topic).
Would this actually result in an altered sound on a lesser-powered device?
Good point, devil’s advocates are often right. Given your listening levels and your choice of EQ, of course amps make a difference. But beyond the point where your power requirements are covered, and the noise+distortion figures are below the threshold of audibility, there is no need for more power. In other words, there is a “scaling” but only up to a certain point.

What’s remarkable is that these days you can get to that point with fairly affordable gear, while higher end gear is more suited if you need extra functionality, professional reliability etc.
Edit: this wasn’t a direct reply to your question about impedance, sorry. I was mostly correcting my previous post, where I seemed to imply that amps make no difference.
 
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WickedInsignia

WickedInsignia

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@paolomo So in essence, and please excuse any ignorance here....if a "weak" device (such as a phone) is driving a hungry headphone (say 150-300 ohms) to a desirable listening level, with no intentions to EQ or increase that level, there would be no sound quality benefits in buying an amp?
 

paolomo

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@paolomo So in essence, and please excuse any ignorance here....if a "weak" device (such as a phone) is driving a hungry headphone (say 150-300 ohms) to a desirable listening level, with no intentions to EQ or increase that level, there would be no sound quality benefits in buying an amp?
Driving high impedance headphones (150-300 Ohm) with a phone you might be losing the low frequencies, so the loudness seems ok but you are losing something. The higher the volume, the more you will notice the sound becoming nasty. In that case, you are not driving your headphones to a desired listening level, there is a loss of quality of sorts, and a more powerful amp would indeed make a difference. However, when you have a moment, please check this other thread from few days ago (the whole thread, if you can):
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...are-they-just-faulty.21785/page-2#post-724719
In that thread there are a lot of questions like yours and great answers from the knowledgeable people here. In particular, the awesome @solderdude answers specific questions of mine about power and EQ.
 
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Wombat

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Does scaling infer a non-linear sensitivity to input voltage?
 

solderdude

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That being said, is there a technical case for scaling? Is it completely myth, or is there anything to support the idea that an amp produces more than just volume headroom?

Sorry... W.O.T. as one cannot explain with just a few popular buzz words.

It is just volume headroom, bias (not of the output stage itself ;)) and voltage sensitivity as well as the volpot taper and FR being changed by certain equipment being either caused by unusual high output resistance or roll-off in the audible range.
As an example an average sensitivity headphone.

To double the volume (without a hint of clipping) the output power needs to be 10x higher.
At background listening levels you need maybe 0.03mW. This needs to be seen in the proper perspective. You need 0.03mW PEAK SPL that isn't the same as 0.03mW average level. Average levels may well be 0.003mW. Not a single device has problems with that.

To go twice as loud the amp needs to be able to provide 0.3mW. This brings you in the very comfortable listening level range you can listen to for hours. This too is no issue and can be reached with any device.

To go twice as loud again and reach comfortable loud levels you need 3mW. These levels can easily be endured for a couple of songs and when one likes a song and turns it up a little this is where you are. Also reachable with as good as any device.
It's the reason why most people say their headphone sounds great from a phone and you don't need an amp at all.

Next level requires 30mW. This will get you to an actively loud listening level that will be uncomfortable when this is longer than one entire song.
You are already reaching 110dB peak SPL.

When you really want to be impressed by sound you dial it up just a few dB more and end up in the 100mW peak region. Hitting 115 to 120dB peaks. This is something people do at headphone shows and to see how great the sound is, especially the bass. One does this for maybe 30 seconds or so and then dials down or switches a song.

There's the power thing. Now the people that talk about scaling will always be at least above 10mW and most likely reach 100mW peaks. Peaks that need to be clean, no distortion.

One would say well 10mW is not much. Even my phone ca reach that. In 16 ohm you need 0.4V... yes your average dongle will reach that on a headphone with an average sensitivity with say 100dB/mW.
For 32 ohm you need 0.6V.. yes a phone can reach that (usually around 1V or so).
50 ohm = 0.7V
120 ohm = 1.1V (so starts clipping already)
300 ohm = 1.7V so a phone won't be reaching an uncomfortable loud level and bass will suffer first, sound turns nasty.
The problem here is that those devices won't reach heavily clipping levels. They are not just limited to 1V but won't go much louder than 1V
It will stop at 3mW in 300ohm which is only a comfortable loud level. When you want to reach impressive levels you will need more.
So an amp is essential. No impressive sound means underwhelming experience. Add some more power and the impressive sound comes around. It 'scales' with amping. Need even more ? needs an amp with higher voltage.

Now.. most headphones will be around 100dB/mW but the impedance at this power efficiency level determines how much voltage is needed.
It's the voltage (combined with the impedance) that determines how loud it goes.

Then there is frequency response, bass heavy cans can have 10dB higher SPL in the lows (where impressive sound comes from) than rolled off headphones. 10dB requires 10x the power (3.1x the voltage). So bass shy headphones need about 10x more 'power' than bass heavy headphones to sound equally 'impressive' as sensitivity is measured around 500Hz to 1kHz in general.
So the bass shy versions need more 'power'. So they 'scale' more than bass heavy headphones.

Add to that... a lower sensitivity headphones can be as low as 80dB/mW and high efficiency ones as high as 115dB/mW.
For lower efficiency ones (plenty of those around) you thus need a lot more power than 10mW to become even remotely impressive.
These headphones will all sound fine on a phone at 'normal listening levels' but won't reach impressive levels.

So there you have the complexity.. efficiency, impedance and frequency response explained.

Such as in the case of impedance curves...would there be any reason to believe a high-impedance driver would sound closer to the "intended" FR with more power behind the same listening level?

Impedance curves have nothing to do with it. In general the higher the impedance the lower the voltage sensitivity (see above).

I also mentioned volpot taper and unusual high output resistance.
There is this weird phenomenon that when one listens to the same SPL level but has the volume control at position 10 o'clock the impression you get is that you have LOTS of headroom while when your volume control is at 4 o'clock people get the impression the amp is 'whimpy'.

The 10 o'clock one can be turned up further (has more gain) and one is certainly going to do that or has done that and reached impressive levels.
Can't do it with the 'whimpy' one. Even when both are used at the same level people still feel the sound from the amp with higher gain is more 'impressive'. This too adds to the idea of scaling.

As most folks have no idea how much power they actually use, how much gain influences the impression of amps, what's the difference between low and high impedances, the voltages they need, the differences in efficiency, the influence of frequency response, the influence of hearing (equal loudness contours), the influence their surrounding has (a headphone demo in an audio fair or quiet at home in the evening) as well as other contributing factor the 'myth' is easily born. It is a technical thing in the end misinterpreted by folks that 'heard' things themselves and underestimate their level of comprehension.
 
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WickedInsignia

WickedInsignia

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These headphones will all sound fine on a phone at 'normal listening levels' but won't reach impressive levels.
Still going through all of this info and fully comprehending it (Although I have a basic handle on it now, thank you!) but this is the point I think needs to be highlighted.
I wonder how much money would be saved if everyone who thought they needed an amp read and fully comprehended this post first.
In addition I wonder how necessary an amp would be if everyone listened at safe (60~80DB) levels. If we weren't collectively blowing our hearing out, I can't imagine the amp market would be too necessary. It already sort of isn't, considering how much manufacturers like to twist or completely omit the science.

I'll consider myself in the "informed" category, and keep using solely my iPhone 6 at an average 50DB listening level (as I have always used it, and shockingly to some fully enjoy my tunes) :)
 

ahofer

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Scaling is an “invented” term by the hobby, but essentially:
The concept of a headphone’s sound increasing in quality (transient response, timbre, fidelity, extension, FR closer to the companies’ intended target) at the exact same volume level when using more powerful or more expensive amps.

Huh? I guess I’m not as familiar with the headphone version of audiophoolery.
 
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WickedInsignia

WickedInsignia

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Huh? I guess I’m not as familiar with the headphone version of audiophoolery.
It's frequently parroted on HeadFi, SBAF, review sites and select reviewers. It's probably the most successful flavour of mysticism in the headphone world TBH, alongside hi-res formats and burn-in.
 

rcstevensonaz

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In addition I wonder how necessary an amp would be if everyone listened at safe (60~80DB) levels. If we weren't collectively blowing our hearing out, I can't imagine the amp market would be too necessary. ...
Unless I am mistaken, you misunderstood the point of @solderdude.

Many (perhaps nearly all) of us listen at reasonable volume levels. But, some (perhaps many of us) also have our "turn it up" moments when we want to bask in a song or a listening session to enjoy music in all of its full glory ("impact"); and a few of us on occasions will further want to experience that sonic bliss to its fullest glory (hopefully, for shorter durations).

The iPhone internal amp is not going to meet the full glory—let alone fullest glory—listening on many headphones. Even more so when using "low-bass" headphones that need more power for impact, and/or when using high impedance headphones (e.g., HE6SE).

The market for "headphone amps" for the purpose of "scaling" has a legitimate reason to exist. The question then becomes one of whether your existing device chain is sufficient for the full glory and/or the fullest glory listening times. For example, RME will note that their headphone amp section on their ADI-2 DAC / PRO is sufficient for all headphones *except* those that need higher power. On the other hand, if you *only* listen at low volume levels, as SolderDude suggests, a simple Apple USB DAC to 3.5mm is sufficient.

Note: this conversation is only about scaling. Quality of op-amp design, power supply electronics, noise rejection, etc. can all come into play as well; but that is completely orthogonal the the OP's topic.
 
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