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The relevance of measurements to audible quality of sound

solderdude

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@ great not-to-be-named....
Which Sennheiser Massdrop headphone ?
I would think many of the (Massdrop) amp offerings may be good enough ?
What type of seasoning in your 'water'?
price range ?
Other headphones as well ?
Any preferences ?
Any brands types you have pre-picked preferred ?
Functionality ?
Inputs / outputs ?
Portable and/or desktop ?
Must be connected to what ?
What other equipemnt you got ?
Listen loud now and then ?
Audiophile or casual listener ?

There are probably many many 'recommendations that might suit the task. There isn't one that is THE best. And there will also be overkill.
 
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Blumlein 88

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snippage......

Noise, I talked about this once with a recording engineer. I talked about high levels of SNR and he laughed at me and gently explained that most recording microphones have around 26dB self noise and a maximum SPL of 130dB making the dynamic range that can be recorded via most recording microphones less than 110dB or 18 Bit. He then added that in reality even less than the 104dB in our theory can be reached because often recording microphones are placed at distances from instruments where the maximum SPL is not reached. He also pointed out that mixing multiple microphones together further increases the noise.

He then asked me if I knew the background noise in my living room. I said I did not, h suggested in a superbly quiet room at night I might have 20dB background noise, usually more. If listening at 105dB peak SPL (THX standard) this gives only 85dB dynamic range, which is less than CD offers and much less than most devices tested here.

A good example where sometimes you need to dig deeper than single numbers. Most mikes probably are closer to 16 db self noise than 26 db. And most can work cleanly to more than 130 db. Most would have a full dynamic range of 120 db or more. Though truly other than super close miking (not uncommon) or miking drums this doesn't come into play. You'll also find the profile of noise varies with frequency being somewhere between pink and brown. So your room might have a 30 db noise floor for the 20 khz spectrum. It may however be not far removed from 0 db SPL in the octave or so where human hearing is most sensitive. Dolby has done some considerable research into this. They suggest a playback system of 126 db would be needed to fully encompass range some music may need. I think that is probably overkill 99% of the time and 110 db SPL is very rarely going to be inadequate with music. Combined with noise in electronics and venues and mics etc. etc. 20 bit performance 120 db dynamic range is going to be enough. More than enough with the great majority of recorded music.
snippage..........

So noise levels of better than perhaps also -90dB to -100dB would seem "good enough" in practice, given the limitations of recording and room noise.

In this case it would seem almost all the devices here measure "good enough" and cannot be recommended over each other based on measurements!?

If so, should this not be stated somewhere to avoid misleading people into buying a higher spec than they need?

snippage
Magnum Innominandum

I would not disagree with that for the most part. As well as saying most devices are good enough. Usually what is seen here is higher priced gear not measuring as well as lower priced gear so lower priced gear is suggested. If two pieces of gear are equally priced and even if both are audibly equivalent it seems a shame not to buy the better measuring one.

Also, one needs to look carefully as many pieces of gear that are basically okay may have a potentially audible gotcha somewhere.

As for the needs of your amp, I'm not familiar with enough available headphone amps to give good advice on what you need. Nor the needs of your particular phones. An underlying ethos here whether it is fully developed or not is the idea reasons for two bits of gear sounding different are going to be measureable.
 

Wombat

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Why so complicated. Assuming a competent amp, it comes down to power output capability(can be lacking in these little HP amps., frequency response, output impedance and whether the Sennheiser headphone in question is a 'difficult' load(NO!). As for the subjective side of things that is up to the poster.

Too much overthinking. Talk about bedazzled with extraneous information. Not enough KISS in audio, nowadays. o_O
 
OP
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Which Sennheiser Massdrop headphone ?

I would say many of the Massdrop amp offerings may be good enough.
What type of seasoning in your 'water'?
price range ?
Other headphones as well ?
Any preferences ?
Any brands types you have pre-picked preferred ?
Functionality ?
Inputs / outputs ?
Portable and/or desktop ?

HD6XX, currently only headphone. I need them for my home office, listening late at night (wife and new baby), office at work and the like.

Not sure what "seasoning" means.

I listened to HD650 and liked what I heard a lot (so I got the cheaper Massdrop version), but the bass is weak. I tried Bass EQ on my Laptop with the HD6XX but this did not go well. Everything overloaded quickly. I'd like a more real bass if that is possible.

My Speaker Setup I use to listen to music and play movies is an Onkyo AV Receiver with networked audio. Speakers are JBL Control 5 and an active JBL Sub. I figured as they are professional speakers they will be less coloured than many "HiFi" Speakers. This system shames my neighbours Bose Home Cinema which has a very good reputation.

Price range, lower is better. I will spend as much as the 200 USD I paid for the headphones, but if I can get something for less I prefer to pay less.

Preference, good sound. Something that sounds like real music.

I have looked at brands and I am bewildered. Every brand seems to have fanboys that praise it over the moon and detractors that claim to have never heard worse sound ever.

Functionality - go between my laptop, I play Tidal and paid for "Hifi" not that I hear much of a difference on my laptop if any and my Headphone.

Input, I guess from reading USB. But I read of loads of problems with USB, need for additional gizmo's. My laptop has optical out, but I know this is now rare and then next one I buy may not have this.

It's mainly desktop, but should be easy to carry to the main office if I work from there or to clients sites.

That said, I would like to pursue the original thrust of the thread more.

I am disappointed by the state of reliable information to aid purchase decisions in Audio and finding that even places like this that present themselves as objective and science driven are not really that useful in making good choices is disappointing.

How can one decide what to buy? Do we really need to get a PhD in Audio simply to make an informed buying decision? There has to be a better way!

Magnum Innominandum
 

Wombat

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HD6XX, currently only headphone. I need them for my home office, listening late at night (wife and new baby), office at work and the like.

Not sure what "seasoning" means.

I listened to HD650 and liked what I heard a lot (so I got the cheaper Massdrop version), but the bass is weak. I tried Bass EQ on my Laptop with the HD6XX but this did not go well. Everything overloaded quickly. I'd like a more real bass if that is possible.

My Speaker Setup I use to listen to music and play movies is an Onkyo AV Receiver with networked audio. Speakers are JBL Control 5 and an active JBL Sub. I figured as they are professional speakers they will be less coloured than many "HiFi" Speakers. This system shames my neighbours Bose Home Cinema which has a very good reputation.

Price range, lower is better. I will spend as much as the 200 USD I paid for the headphones, but if I can get something for less I prefer to pay less.

Preference, good sound. Something that sounds like real music.

I have looked at brands and I am bewildered. Every brand seems to have fanboys that praise it over the moon and detractors that claim to have never heard worse sound ever.

Functionality - go between my laptop, I play Tidal and paid for "Hifi" not that I hear much of a difference on my laptop if any and my Headphone.

Input, I guess from reading USB. But I read of loads of problems with USB, need for additional gizmo's. My laptop has optical out, but I know this is now rare and then next one I buy may not have this.

It's mainly desktop, but should be easy to carry to the main office if I work from there or to clients sites.

That said, I would like to pursue the original thrust of the thread more.

I am disappointed by the state of reliable information to aid purchase decisions in Audio and finding that even places like this that present themselves as objective and science driven are not really that useful in making good choices is disappointing.

How can one decide what to buy? Do we really need to get a PhD in Audio simply to make an informed buying decision? There has to be a better way!

Magnum Innominandum

Good information. No you don't need a PhD but there are those who make it seem that way. Audio is simple at the consumer interface once the situation is clear. Yes you are correct that it doesn't appear to be that way - too many navel-gazers.

You will get some practical suggestions re your current post. Hang in.
 

andreasmaaan

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I tried Bass EQ on my Laptop with the HD6XX but this did not go well. Everything overloaded quickly. I'd like a more real bass if that is possible.

Just before you jump and spend a pile of cash on a new piece of hardware, it might be good to make sure didn't go about EQing the headphones the wrong way. Which EQ did you use, and what were your settings?
 

Wombat

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First, is the amp up to delivering expected LF? If not EQ is no use.
 
OP
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Just before you jump and spend a pile of cash on a new piece of hardware, it might be good to make sure didn't go about EQing the headphones the wrong way. Which EQ did you use, and what were your settings?

I used the sound software Graphic EQ (10 Band) for my Laptop. There are a number of EQ's described out there, I used +5dB at 63Hz and +10dB at 32Hz based on these, nothing else. At low volume the bass sounded much fuller and more natural, but it was not possible to turn the volume up.

Magnum Innominandum
 

andreasmaaan

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I used the sound software Graphic EQ (10 Band) for my Laptop. There are a number of EQ's described out there, I used +5dB at 63Hz and +10dB at 32Hz based on these, nothing else. At low volume the bass sounded much fuller and more natural, but it was not possible to turn the volume up.

Magnum Innominandum

Yeh, sounds like the laptop doesn't have a the requisite output.

In general though, I'd steer clear of graphic software EQ. Parametric is the only way to do it properly IME.
 
OP
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Yeh, sounds like the laptop doesn't have a the requisite output.

In general though, I'd steer clear of graphic software EQ. Parametric is the only way to do it properly IME.

Some amp's have bass boost, are any of those good? Am I better off with just an Amp or is a DAC/Amp a better choice? Anything at 200 USD that does all of it?

Magnum Innominandum
 

andreasmaaan

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Some amp's have bass boost, are any of those good? Am I better off with just an Amp or is a DAC/Amp a better choice? Anything at 200 USD that does all of it?

Magnum Innominandum

I suspect you may as well go with a DAC+amp combo, and that the answer to your final question there is yes, but I'll leave this one to the headphone people...
 

solderdude

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HD6XX

Not sure what "seasoning" means.

With seasoning I mean very small 'alterations' to sound preferences. As in tubes or other euphonic additions.

I listened to HD650 and liked what I heard a lot (so I got the cheaper Massdrop version), but the bass is weak. I tried Bass EQ on my Laptop with the HD6XX but this did not go well. Everything overloaded quickly. I'd like a more real bass if that is possible.

sounds like either the 'volume' was not lowered in or by the software leading to clipping or the used headphone out ran out of voltage.

Price range, lower is better. I will spend as much as the 200 USD I paid for the headphones, but if I can get something for less I prefer to pay less.

That is really feasable. I can start naming a bunch of amps (DAC-amps) that will apply. Thus you will get a bunch of recommendations that all will fit the bill. It may be frustrating me not naming a few but I am not going to say ... buy this or that or ....

Preference, good sound. Something that sounds like real music.

amps and DAC's can not make music sound more 'real', at most some gear can make it sound poor.

I have looked at brands and I am bewildered. Every brand seems to have fanboys that praise it over the moon and detractors that claim to have never heard worse sound ever.

Truth is most of the amps will sound good as long as they can provide enough voltage (some can't) and have a wide enough frequency range.

Functionality - go between my laptop, I play Tidal and paid for "Hifi" not that I hear much of a difference on my laptop if any and my Headphone.

USB DAC + amp (or combo) seems the most likely candidate. A standalone amp is also something that could be used. Soundcards of laptops can be quite good when paired with just an amp.

Input, I guess from reading USB. But I read of loads of problems with USB, need for additional gizmo's. My laptop has optical out, but I know this is now rare and then next one I buy may not have this.

B.S. for the most part, there are some (quite rare) USB DAC's that have 'problems' with USB.
Examples are found on ASR.
Most USB works fine.


It's mainly desktop, but should be easy to carry to the main office if I work from there or to clients sites.

so small and preferably 1 product thus USB DAC-AMP combo.

That said, I would like to pursue the original thrust of the thread more.

I am disappointed by the state of reliable information to aid purchase decisions in Audio and finding that even places like this that present themselves as objective and science driven are not really that useful in making good choices is disappointing.

The absence of websites that tell you what to buy without any knowledge is for a good reason.
Those that do probably gain financially or are fanboys.

As you can see proper advise depends on proper input.
I know of no website where you can fill in all the wishes stated in my previous post and have a number of currently available gear rolling out with choices from all manufacturers and sellers Iincl ebay, amazon, ali-express etc.) that are available in your region.

The only thing one can do is ask for advise on forums or from retailers. Depending on WHO you ask you get different recommendations.
Even on one site you will get several different recommendations by folks that want to help or share personal experiences.

That's the way it is. There is no 1 RIGHT, there are a bunch of people that are 'right' and multiple recommendations/equipment will be perfect.

How can one decide what to buy? Do we really need to get a PhD in Audio simply to make an informed buying decision? There has to be a better way!

No, instead ask people for advise. Look for 'common' recommendations or one you trust and go with that.
Ask the right questions.
Give all the input they need.

Have a look around, see what fits your needs and looks nice to you and post those here.
Then I can have a look and say which one will do and shorten that list to make the decision easier is all I can offer.
 
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svart-hvitt

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OP is relevant and one needs psychoacoustics research to pin down the thresholds, limits that are audible (cfr. «Hi-Rez» research).

And somewhat ironically, we are better at defining those limits and measuring when it comes to the peripheral boxes that count the least, and not so good at understanding speakers (in room)!

So ASR reminds us sometimes of the drunkard looking for his keys at night under the light pole.

;)
 

Grave

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-80 dB (0.01%)

This can be achieved with cheap equipment so the cost is irrelevant.
 

Frank Dernie

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Are you aware of the test and analysis technology in motor racing. The degree of car performance predictability is extremely high. They do test drives for comparison and ultimately the driver gives his objective and subjective feedback.

Except for the intensity and complexity of racing car design and use, the practises parallel audio design and performance. Some drivers admit to superstitious beliefs - a similarity with 'audiophiles'?
Actually we use measurements mainly. Back when I started the only measurement was the stop-watch. If the driver said it was worse and the stopwatch said it was quicker we ignored the driver. It wasn't as rare as you may expect.
Nowadays far more things are measured and analysed, and the best test drivers are the ones who have a good memory and say something like "you remember the test at Barcelona when we had slow change of direction? It is a bit like that, how did we fix it?"
:)
 

Frank Dernie

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I have always tended to approach the idea of an audible threshold from the opposite direction.
I worked on record players are they are universally not very good either in speed stability, distortion and pickup of spurious signal.
Many people like the sound they make though.
Few pickup cartridges have less than 2% distortion in the mid band and 8% is common in the top octave (though probably not audible since all harmonic products are above the audible range)
Wow and flutter gives pitch instability way worse than any digital system I have seen (other than Metronome beloved of audiophiles which is typically 2 orders of magnitude or more worse than good ones)
Spurious pickup can be poor but depends on design and siting so very variable but I have measured bass environmental pickup 8dB down on the main signal on a quality record player on a heavy oak bench.
Records have a maximum dynamic range of around 11-bits.


Based on this either these high levels of distortion are either inaudible, or some people like the kind of distortion they add, take your pick. Even the poorest performing DACs are far superior (and IME sound the same).
It is even possible to produce loudspeakers with around 0.1% distortion in mid and treble and, whilst very rare, less than 0.5% in the bass (100Hz anyway...).
So all the DACs tested are better than speakers. I know little about headphones so won't comment.
Preamps will be lower distortion than either record players or speakers, unless really eccentric engineering is employed, used inside their power limit.
Power amps will mostly be OK too but they are by far the most likely electronic component to have audible limits because real speakers have very different impedances and an amp which drives a high efficiency benign load speaker comfortably may struggle into inefficient speakers with a low impedance.

It has been interesting to see variations in DAC measurements but I would love to see somebody do meaningful power amp measurements - ie into several different real loads. Stereophile use a simulated load to measure the frequency response variation caused by amplifier's output impedance, but not on power output and distortion.
 

SIY

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It has been interesting to see variations in DAC measurements but I would love to see somebody do meaningful power amp measurements - ie into several different real loads. Stereophile use a simulated load to measure the frequency response variation caused by amplifier's output impedance, but not on power output and distortion.

Audio Critic did that one better by using the PowerCube. It is amazing to me that a well-funded organization like Stereophile hasn't incorporated that into their test regime; it's a perfect way to characterize what amp will work with what load.
 

RayDunzl

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Sorry, but ???

1539282022974.png
 

pwjazz

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@Magnum Innominandum this is one of my favourite topics, really fascinating stuff.

@Krunok is right to some extent, there are no completely clear answers here, but I also tend to agree with @Wombat: these things are not a great mystery; there's just some margin for error in those thresholds that have been experimentally derived.

There are lots of threads on this in the Psychoacoustics section, which is one place I'd suggest you start.

If you haven't already, I'd also strongly recommend reading Floyd Toole (either his whole book or his various online articles) as an introduction, then this classic text for a more in-depth understanding.

FWIW, I'm going to do something probably controversial (and certainly overly simplistic) and answer Krunok's question by listing here what I consider to be the most conservative estimates of audibility thresholds based on solid experimental data. Most of these thresholds will be higher in practice/reality, but these are worst-case-scenario experimentally obtained thresholds (to the best of my knowledge):
  • Non-linear distortion: 0.003% when distortion is of the most heinous kind, higher in most typical cases, very SPL dependent (achievable with electronics, impossible with speakers)
  • Group delay: 0.8ms above 300Hz with speakers; lower with headphones, higher at lower frequencies (achievable)
  • Jitter: 10ns for sine waves (frequency dependent), 30ns or more for music (achievable)
  • Noise: -149dB at 2-3KHz (but only if you're listening in an anechoic chamber at a level so loud it literally causes pain and permanently damages your hearing), lower at other frequencies, much lower in all practical cases (achievable)
Sources (apart from those mentioned above):

Kudos for a thorough, well cited and friendly answer!
 
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