The recording has a bigger influence on sound quality than any of our equipment

[sergeauckland]

SLightly different point to the one I was making. A bad recording is a bad recording and as you allude to low fi equipment may not expose it as such. To say that equipment is good for a genre of music is another (erroneous) thing imo.

I completely agree. I would never set up a system that sounded good on one genre, and bad on another. In my opinion, a Good System sounds good with any good recording, and sounds bad with a bad recording. In other words, it exposes the recording for what it is.

S.

 

[sergeauckland]

Raising Sand is a classic example of the LP being many many times superior to the CD.

Hard for it to be worse!
Seriously though, it's not possible to flat-top a vinyl cut at high level as the cutter will in effects soft-clip both for physical mechanical reasons and to protect itself against burn-out. I suppose it's possible to take a clipped recording and cut the clipping at a low level so the recording is still clipped, but quieter, but there's no point in doing that except to prove the point.

The RIAA equalisation will also boost excess HF caused by clipping, making it doubly necessary for there not to be any.


S.

 

[fas42]

My bitstream analyser indicates that the track hits 0dBFS many times during each track, so showing clear signs of limiting. Limiting wouldn't be so bad, but ripping the CD and looking at the waveform, there's many a flat-top indicating that it's not just limiting, but clipping.

S.

Hitting odB happens on a lot of material, but doesn't immediately "wreck" the sound - everything put out in the last 20 years would go down the gurgler, on this basis. I had a look at the waveform of "Rich Woman", as one of the high energy tracks, and indeed it shows the usual solid lump of sound almost the full length, with 'reasonable' compression, of about 5dB squashing of peaks.

An example of an album that I found years ago to be hard work, was Jool Holland's Small World Big Band - very dense sound, driving energy, and strongly compressed; I use it as a test album, to see if a system can deliver the intensity, without subjectively being far too much of a earful. In comparison, Raising Sand is a puff of fresh air ...

 

[fas42]

I completely agree. I would never set up a system that sounded good on one genre, and bad on another. In my opinion, a Good System sounds good with any good recording, and sounds bad with a bad recording. In other words, it exposes the recording for what it is.

S.

There's another level one can aspire to - a Competent System. A "good" recording will stay good; a "bad" one will deliver its musical hit without making you aware of the recording "badness" - you are distracted from the limitations of the source, because the emotional, musical message is dominant. And, very frequently the "bad" recordings are far more satisfying than the "good", because the creators were much more concerned with being creative, than dotting the i's and crossing the t's in the SQ stakes.

 

[Wombat]

There's another level one can aspire to - a Competent System. A "good" recording will stay good; a "bad" one will deliver its musical hit without making you aware of the recording "badness" - you are distracted from the limitations of the source, because the emotional, musical message is dominant. And, very frequently the "bad" recordings are far more satisfying than the "good", because the creators were much more concerned with being creative, than dotting the i's and crossing the t's in the SQ stakes.

What are the applicable selection criteria for selecting and matching components of a 'Competent System'.

 

[fas42]

What are the applicable selection criteria for selecting and matching components of a 'Competent System'.

Not that easy to say - my approach over the years has been to use old, second hand components - because I hate wrecking something pricey, if I make a mistake - and I want free rein to do anything I think necessary, or worthwhile, when tweaking and experimenting.

For doing a new setup, the first thing I would look for is that the combination can produce high SPLs with the least issues - if there are clear changes of tonality as the volume rises that means that quite a bit may need to be done to resolve that; it's a good thing to start with 'horsepower' to spare. Typically, I listen to the sound of the cymbals - can higher volumes be reached, without these going flat, or losing timbre.

Which is another key aspect: is the high treble in good shape - meaning, it's all there; it's hasn't been softened, dulled or discarded. Which can mean that it may sound shrieky, rough, OTT with a setup in raw form - that doesn't matter at the start; any negatives there get sorted as the system is optimised.

Can the combo reveal the inner detail of recordings with ease, while "working hard"? My Go To used to be a CD of Status Quo hits - this instantly revealed the duds, setups that were miles from being in the race.

 

[Analog Scott]

Hard for it to be worse!
Seriously though, it's not possible to flat-top a vinyl cut at high level as the cutter will in effects soft-clip both for physical mechanical reasons and to protect itself against burn-out. I suppose it's possible to take a clipped recording and cut the clipping at a low level so the recording is still clipped, but quieter, but there's no point in doing that except to prove the point.

The RIAA equalisation will also boost excess HF caused by clipping, making it doubly necessary for there not to be any.


S.

Are you assuming the original recording is clipped?

 

[Wombat]

Not that easy to say - my approach over the years has been to use old, second hand components - because I hate wrecking something pricey, if I make a mistake - and I want free rein to do anything I think necessary, or worthwhile, when tweaking and experimenting.

For doing a new setup, the first thing I would look for is that the combination can produce high SPLs with the least issues - if there are clear changes of tonality as the volume rises that means that quite a bit may need to be done to resolve that; it's a good thing to start with 'horsepower' to spare. Typically, I listen to the sound of the cymbals - can higher volumes be reached, without these going flat, or losing timbre.

Which is another key aspect: is the high treble in good shape - meaning, it's all there; it's hasn't been softened, dulled or discarded. Which can mean that it may sound shrieky, rough, OTT with a setup in raw form - that doesn't matter at the start; any negatives there get sorted as the system is optimised.

Can the combo reveal the inner detail of recordings with ease, while "working hard"? My Go To used to be a CD of Status Quo hits - this instantly revealed the duds, setups that were miles from being in the race.

I have found that a low distortion, high SPL, system can be played very loudly without seeming to be so loud compared to systems with inherent distortions. On occasions I have made a comment during such a playback and then, to my surprise, I needed to yell to be heard.

Of course, at a certain SPL the room distortion will overwhelm such an audio system.

 

[Analog Scott]

I have found that a low distortion, high SPL, system can be played very loudly without seeming to be so loud compared to systems with inherent distortions. On occasions I have made a comment during such a playback and then, to my surprise, I needed to yell to be heard.

Of course, at a certain SPL the room distortion will overwhelm such an audio system.

You have made head to head comparisons under bias controlled conditions?

 

[DonH56]

I have found that a low distortion, high SPL, system can be played very loudly without seeming to be so loud compared to systems with inherent distortions. On occasions I have made a comment during such a playback and then, to my surprise, I needed to yell to be heard.

Of course, at a certain SPL the room distortion will overwhelm such an audio system.

Many of us have found the first to be true. My friends back in college were always surprised when they heard my system and found they had to be shout to be heard after they had asked me to "crank it up".

I am not sure what you mean by the latter. What do you define as "room distortion"?

 

[fas42]

"Room distortion" I would take to be parts of the room structure and things within it vibrating in sympathy - adding audible content. Of course, live instrument playing would do exactly the same thing, so ...

 

[Analog Scott]

Many of us have found the first to be true. My friends back in college were always surprised when they heard my system and found they had to be shout to be heard after they had asked me to "crank it up".

I am not sure what you mean by the latter. What do you define as "room distortion"?

Technically any audible reflection is an added distortion by the room. Standing waves are a serious room distortion. Echo is a huge room distortion. Uneven frequency response in the reflections is a distortion of the distortion of the added reflected sound. The only room that is absolutely distortion free is an anechoic chamber.

 

[sergeauckland]

Are you assuming the original recording is clipped?

No, almost certainly not, my guess that was done at the time of CD mastering. What I meant was that it's not possible to clip an LP in the same way, so it isn't done. That means that the master mix, which is what the artists and record company sign-off on as the Finished Work necessarily can't be heavily clipped if an LP is going to be cut from it. However, for CD release, the levels can be raised and clipping allowed as part of the Mastering process, so it's louder and punchier.

Very short clipping isn't necessarily audible, although I consider it bad practice, but the occasional clip can be audibly benign. Heavy clipping, as is regularly done with many CD releases is audibly nastier. Have a look at Rag and Bone Man's Human CD. Great music, but horrible sound, and the waveforms will show you why.

S.

 

[sergeauckland]

Technically any audible reflection is an added distortion by the room. Standing waves are a serious room distortion. Echo is a huge room distortion. Uneven frequency response in the reflections is a distortion of the distortion of the added reflected sound. The only room that is absolutely distortion free is an anechoic chamber.

Indeed. However, for most 'normal' domestic rooms, with reasonable amounts of diffusion and absorption from furniture, we get used to what our rooms sound like just from everyday noises and speech. Playing music in such a room, using a system that has essentially a flat frequency response will sound 'natural' and 'right' to us who live with that room's sound every day.

I think that's how we manage to make decent sounds in a home. However, I completely agree that if one has a room with undamped standing waves, flutter echoes and a system with loudspeakers that are nowhere near flat in frequency response, it'll be nigh on impossible to get a decent sound.

S.