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The REAL Problem of March Audio's Sointuva WG (Review, Measurements and Reinforcements with Klippel device)

Thomas_A

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Yes, that's right.

Since they are not measured on the same date, even near-field measurements may cause slight differences in Fundamental SPL.
This is due to the distance between the microphone and the diaphragm.

But nevertheless, we can find the 3rd HD peak at 380hz particularly emphasized.

I'm sure this is a common characteristic of Purifi described by Alan.
Not sure if you have the speakers still, but are there any cabinet vibrations around 380-400 Hz that could be felt by the fingers?
 
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Nuyes

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Not sure if you have the speakers still, but are there any cabinet vibrations around 380-400 Hz that could be felt by the fingers?
The speaker has already returned to its owner.
I hope he joins this thread.
 

Absolute

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@Nuyes Interesting findings. Good on you for searching high and low to find the culprits. Quick question, though;

I assume these measurements where taken with the speakers placed on the turntable in opening post? If so, how did you decouple them from the turntable?
 

jae

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@Nuyes I think many would like to hear input from the owner directly, and I'm sure regardless, many feel this is a case of Alan "누워서 침 뱉기". The fact of the matter is that ASR shows up as one of the top three links when searching either "march audio" or "sointuva", and anyone curious about the brand, doing further research on an expensive purchase decision, or expressing interest in any of these products may likely find themselves on ASR- which will lead one to quickly find information on Alan/March Audio and their products, whether it be positive or negative. I think many are reading Alan's responses, erroneously or not, with the same lens as he was viewed, judged, and ultimately banned here for. Surely he is aware of this, but as a business person he must be equipped and willing to deal with it accordingly as reputation is always more important than ego- "손님은 왕이다".

I've suggested Alan's Purifi amps to many of those who asked, and even though they are a bit pricier than some of the other offerings such as VTV/Audiophonics etc., I liked the simple and monolithic industrial look. Initially he was also one of the few paying the most attention to proper wiring and grounding of connections with etc. and seemed to show pride in the builds and showed measurement data. Sointuva is (was?) also on my short list under the assumption it followed the same philosophies. Originally from the west and now stuck in Australia for work since during the start of COVID, buying well-made products domestically here seems like the more sensible choice sometimes because it costs hundreds if not thousands more to import things to this rock in the ocean compared to back home. So Alan's products always seemed like a good option for those living here. But I can only imagine the frustration of paying an import premium for goods from Australia and being disappointed, and it quickly turns into a poor situation for both sides.
 

Thomas_A

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For one thing I would like to exclude the possibility that there are secondary effects due to vibration transfer to speaker supports. Not so common but it happens with some speakers in some situations. Ideally, speakers should be supported by soft feet so that it acts as "free-floating" (I use sylomer-based with speaker-feet-support resonance <10 Hz). The Directiva speaker had the same peak around 380 Hz, which may or may not have been caused by "equipment on top of the speaker". (I find that explanation a bit odd but not impossible. If it would be vibration transfer it would rather suspect it to be through speaker support and to other objects.)
 

jtgofish

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It now makes sense why my wonderful sounding Toshiba SS30 speakers circa 1965 had the drivers glued into place.I have never seen that before.They use a passive radiator too.Perhaps they worked out that achieving a perfectly sealed box and drivers was critical-55 years ago!
 

restorer-john

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And at the time we knew Alan was the supreme authority on this speaker and its knowledge, so we did as directed.

Supreme authority. That made me laugh. Well done.

Toshiba SS30

My quick search turned up this:

1656585323068.png


A Toshiba SS30 3 pole 10A circuit breaker- something this thread desperately needs....
 

beagleman

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It now makes sense why my wonderful sounding Toshiba SS30 speakers circa 1965 had the drivers glued into place.I have never seen that before.They use a passive radiator too.Perhaps they worked out that achieving a perfectly sealed box and drivers was critical-55 years ago!

Send them in for a "spin" if you are that confident!

Seriously, having owned several speakers from the 1960s decade, MOST choices were not for good acoustics, but simply random choices. I can tell you a DOZEN things they did not consider back then. Usually just random chance.
 

bennybbbx

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The speaker has already returned to its owner.
I hope he joins this thread.

that really not good that you can not test it and do a CEA 2010 Burst at 380 hz with it in nearfield. maybe the owner can do a CEA 2010 burst. can do with a cheap microphone of a handy. and REW is a java app can also run on a handy.

here is a short video how this can do

and here are some burst of speakers and later eq only

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ith-klippel-device.35255/page-22#post-1231496
 

Keith Conroy

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Who do people trust and like the most?

Data from similarweb - total visits to website in the last month:

AudioScienceReview.com - 2.4M
ErinsAudioCorner.com - 42.1K
MarchAudio.com - 15.2K

I am currently building a website for an artist friend, and easy navigation and simple and logical paths to find things are a primary goal for me. AudioScienceReview is a big, complex website, but I find navigation here quite easyn and logical here.

I like Erin and his reviews, but I see his website as poorly designed. It is not visually attractive, and there is neither a review index or search box available. Improving the visual appeal of his website would attract more views, and perhaps increase his internet income and donations. Then he wouldn't feel the pressure to use other websites to promote his own site.

OTOH, I find Alan's March audio website to be quite attractive and easy to navigate. His Sointuva speaker page is very nice, and if it were in my price range, I would be very tempted by that loudspeaker. I also like how they look - it reminds me of my current budget loudspeakers, the Wharfedale D320s with their rounded corners.

I buy cheap Chinese audio components to play with and use on my desktop, and I even have a 30 lb. Yarland EL34 Class A PP amp that cost me over $1k by the time I received it here in Panamá. The cheap stuff from halfway round the world with no possibility of free or low cost warranty support is "throw-away" gear for me. If it lasts a year or two before failing, I don't get upset. Tube amps are relatively simple and easy to repair, so I wasn't worried about the Yarland company being so far away - and actually, the company's web presence is gone and they likely have gone out of business.

However, with expensive SOTA (state of the art) high-end made to order components like the Sointuva speakers with their esoteric Purifi drivers, I would expect them to be thoroughly tested and work perfectly. I know and like Alan March from earlier interactions on ASR forums as well as off-line conversations. Many years ago, as a "sales engineer" in super-precision bearings rotating components for aerospace applications (including the Hubble space telescope), the company I worked for had incredibly rigorous quality control, and Alan was involved in similar aerospace environment - in vibration control and testing! His aerospace engineering background also included incredibly rigorous quality control. I was surprised to learn that a pair of his loudspeakers went to Korea with such oversights and problems. Apparently the problms have now been sorted out, and in spite of the contentious back-and-forth interactions on the path to resolution, I still think that March Audio products overall are excellent.

It is unfortunate that the path to understanding and resolution was so nasty at times. But that is what happens when alpha males with type A personalities screw up and can't handle criticism with logic and grace. Quite frankly, I would be happier if things had not gotten out of hand, and Erin and Alan were still active ASR participants.
This is an interesting post. I don't know Alan March personally. I knew some of his background, but you have enlighten the group? Again some of my background is in quality control engineering. Since he has worked with Aerospace, its puzzling he does not have more rigorous quality control on his speakers! Its also surprising he is attacking the data & the messenger! This related to the test finding on his speaker. He would not have this luxury in Areospace! If he took the same approach there they would drop him or he would be up for a full audit. Once you set up quality controls processes you test the actual processes to see they are 100% successful. You have a defined list of quality issues these processes are meant to catch. Cabinet air leaks are a common problem in speaker systems. So his comment, Oh our electrical plug was cover the leak doesn't let him off the hook? He has not directly addressed the data posted on this site in detail! He has sort of said this posted data is irrelevant and the poster is an idiot? This seems to show an arrogance message as opposed to contrition? I don't own the speakers I was never going to buy the speakers. So I don't have a dog in the hunt. However in my view the Alan March response to date is damaging confidence in his brand!!
 

phoenixdogfan

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Obviously, when you set about to build a sealed box speaker, you have to seal the box. That includes the inputs holes for the binding posts--especially if you are using hollow posts. You don't need to be an aerospace engineer to know that. The mini bonus kazoo ports are the kind of thing expected from a Zu loudspeaker.
 
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Nuyes

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Regardless of the core problem of the Sointuva WG, I want to confess my mistakes and make things right.



It is true that I had strong suspicions about Erin at the time I was fixing issues with Sointuva WG.



And already one of my friends asked Erin about this question, and Erin gave him an appropriate answer... but I didn't believe it.



A cowardly excuse... I use templates for most of my measurements while using Klippel software.

This led to strong suspicions that only certain processes were missing from his measurements.



I doubted him without exact grounds, and he made no effort to believe it.

This is very wrong.



And this has resulted in many people being suspicious of Erin.



And also this totally ruined one man's happy weekend.



It's all my responsibility and my fault for people to doubt and slander him, at least on issues related to this thread.







I apologized to he timidly, and he asked me to post this apology on ASR for everyone to see.



Its contents are as follows:






Hello, Erin.



I am the person who posted that review on ASR.



I would like to sincerely apologize to you for this.



I should have asked and wrote about the missing 86dB SPL at 1m THD data in the first place, but I didn't.



And my stupid rashness totally ruined one man's pleasant weekend.




-----





Apart from this, you have always been a great help to me.


The data you've accumulated has given me the confidence of the public as well as cross-validation of my reviews by reviewing the same speakers.



I am fully aware of the difference between my measurement data and the anechoic chamber measurement data using Klippel NFS, and it's limitations.



But despite that, the THD of the Sointuva sample I received was higher than the 96dB data you measured, a symptom not found with other speakers I've run.



So, using the Klippel DIS module(as you know), I tested the harmonic distortion of that resonant band and found that it had a maximum value at about 85dB SPL at 1m.



Coincidentally, I also found that 86dB SPL data was missing from the Sointuva WG only in your review series.



That made me suspicious of you.



Explaining all of this may sound like an excuse for my atrocities, but I think all I can do is tell the truth.



Once again, I sincerely apologize.








I don't want anyone innocent to suffer because of my faults.

I was wrong. Sorry to everyone.
 
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Absolute

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Well, I don't think he meant for you to post the private correspondence in this manner, so perhaps you should ask for permission about that as well.
 
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Nuyes

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Well, I don't think he meant for you to post the private correspondence in this manner, so perhaps you should ask for permission about that as well.
This is not a private correspondence.
Comments posted publicly through his YouTube channel.


-----

Thanks for the advice.
First of all, I deleted his reply.
 
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restorer-john

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Explaining all of this may sound like an excuse for my atrocities,

I wouldn't call any of it "atrocities". There are plenty of actual atrocities going on in the world right now and a little spat about a bookshelf speaker is hardly one of them.

Kudos for owning the faux pas and apologising.
 

changer

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There were many more persons on this board who joined into a chorus of false allegations and mistrust.

They know where Erin's comments section is located at, maybe they want to visit it to leave some respectful words as well.
 

Robbo99999

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Well, I don't think he meant for you to post the private correspondence in this manner, so perhaps you should ask for permission about that as well.
Lol! (well I agree with you) T'was a strange apology anyway. (I have no hand in this thread, as I've only been following it casually, and generally seems like a storm in a teacup).
 

goat76

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Lol! (well I agree with you) T'was a strange apology anyway. (I have no hand in this thread, as I've only been following it casually, and generally seems like a storm in a teacup).
For March Audio, this is probably not a little storm in a teacup. Things like this can destroy a small company.

As an outsider looking in, it seems to me this debacle has turned out to be a very one-sided affair. I think ASR should, at least for a limited time, let Alan respond in this thread because there are always two sides to the coin. Or people should at least read what he got to say on the matter on the March Audio forum, it can be found under Technical and the thread is named "Incompetent Internet Reviewers - Beware!".
 

McFly

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Haha, measuring a 380hz frame resonance in the paper woofer then looking for the same resonance in the Aluminium woofer which has a completely redesigned frame, probably to sort out the former issue. I have both drivers in front of me, very different frames.

But Kudos to the apology, and credit where it’s due on the review effort of the speaker.
 
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