The REAL Problem of March Audio's Sointuva WG (Review, Measurements and Reinforcements with Klippel device)

[amirm]

Anything he doesn’t sell. There are plenty to choose from. Over and out.

As I just explained, we are not in the business of selling any hi-fi gear. We do large scale projects for wealthy clients. If they want a stereo system in the bedroom, we put in an AVR, a TV (likely one that hides), and a couple of speakers which we build in if we can. Long time ago we decided we have no idea how to make money selling audio gear and got out of it and quick! Our business is all custom and much of it outside of audio. A lighting and shade system for a state may cost as much as $200,000 of business for us! We are not going to chase who can sell a couple of hi-fi speakers.

This is why I am so annoyed when people try to ride our back here and make money from our traffic. I don't allow a cent of commercialization to occur. Sure as heck not going to allow third-parties to do that.

 

[MAB]

They are solid, not a hollow tube.

I don't think you are right John..
They are the same ones as on my March Audio amps, which are hollow (I have a pair).
And are advertised as hollow!

Plus, they are Kryo!!! Just kidding. Also, hollow means lower capacitance, inductance, and resistance!!! They must be kidding!!!

OK, back to my rant...
The reviewer said they were hollow and tried to show it by back-lighting.
So, this is a passive radiator design, using an ultra-long-throw woofer (that cracked the long stroke code no less!), likely with another 100g or more added to each passive to tune the contraption. All of this energy with two 4mm holes in the cabinet. This is audible, and so easy to address in manufacturing.

These will sound glorious I think. But, there are two 4mm holes per cabinet and that will make audible noises, depending on what wires you stuff into the holes no less.

 

[McFly]

This website is turning into a dumpster fire.

What a shame. It could be used for good by all reviewers and just use disclaimers or tags to allow the reader to choose or believe in whatever they want and read or watch but instead it’s just pitted everyone against each other. And there’s an questionable driver at the helm. This site is becoming a Facebook page for people with OCD and cultists.

So much potential, being wasted. I hope Linus at LTT is ready for the hordes of these zombies to come at him when he starts doing headphone reviews.

 

[SDC]

Edit: Problem fixed thank you

 

[Tks]

Hard to do if one side is using the other to try and generate profit.

I didn’t even know Erin had been banned and he seems nice enough, but he was clearly using the large audience here, that Amir has cultivated over many years, to drive traffic to his monetised channels.

My understanding is that ASR does not make a profit, the effort that goes into reviewing products regularly and running this place takes a lot of time and effort, all for the love of the hobby. So I’m not surprised someone was banned for taking advantage. Especially when they were regularly smarmy in their posts aimed at the site owner.

Yeah but, these are the things I would hope would get talked over and agreed upon (or not) in some fashion in the private reconciliatory talk they might have. Though I think it's less hard to do due to that reason (since that can be easily settled) in contrast to cordial conversation after strong words and events transpiring since.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Amir doesn’t follow his own rules then, or they are too loosely defined. Every single review he has done with subjective comparisons to Revels should be considered conflicted if transparency about monetisation is a goal. At the very least they should have a disclaimer.

I don't agree with your thesis at all. In every review where he even mentions Revel, he takes pains to disclose his relationship with the company. As long as he's doing that whatever opinions he advances as a subjective reviewer, he's entitled to put out there, and we are entitled to accept or reject them with full knowledge of the potential conflicts.

Frankly, I read Amir for the objective data, more than anything anyway, and I'm certain that's true of nearly everyone here. As long as the commercial relationships don't lead to the publication of inaccurate or misleading objective data, I can readily accept that Amir may have a different take on Wilson TuneTots than I do. SFW!

 

[amirm]

So much potential, being wasted.

Nothing is being wasted. You saw a review from me last night. And you are going to see another, or maybe two tonight. You don't have to read this thread. Just move along instead of making it more of a dumpster fire by adding to the complaint list.

 

[MAB]

Amir doesn’t follow his own rules then, or they are too loosely defined. Every single review he has done with subjective comparisons to Revels should be considered conflicted if transparency about monetisation is a goal. At the very least they should have a disclaimer.

You didn't read the disclaimer he makes every time he reviews a product he reps. You need to go back and look at the reviews.
Like:

 

[phoenixdogfan]

For $4K (or less) there are so many well designed speakers available. I would just get a pair of active Genelec 8331A with GLM DSP and call it a day because I just saved money on a matching amplifier.

Yeah, but if you already have a Purifi and an Octo Dac 8, maybe Sointuvas would have been your upgrade over LS 50 Metas--with the accent on 'would have been."

 

[concorde1]

Seeing as my Sointuva's are currently in production and I was concerned, I asked March Audio about the problems suggested by this thread. I got this response. I just included the relevant information. (See BOTH quote boxes!)

Firstly, yes we made an error with not sealing the binding posts. That was a QC error which has been addressed in manufacture. We didn't pick it up on the post manufacture test for that particular pair due to us using very tight fitting banana plugs which seal the hole. Please note I gave the customer significant compensation for his time to fix the problem and seal the posts himself. Our mistake and error for which I apologised.



The rest of it, however is nonsense.



He then claimed and concluded from his measurements that there was a faulty passive radiator. Incorrect. The 380 Hz distortion blip is caused by a fundamental resonance of the woofer frame and magnet assembly. It will be seen in *ALL* designs.



Please look at these plots of Amirs previous purifi speaker tests.

Exactly the same issue.




Further more I have had discussions with both Lars Risbo and Bruno Putzeys from Purifi regarding it. They acknowledge the issue and we have worked out a solution regarding the driver mounting that I am waiting for them to implement in manufacture.



In the meantime we have implemented a mitigation, not an elimination, but a significant reduction. You will note that that one of the pair of this customers speakers didn't have a high distortion blip at 380hz. The reason for this is because it was the speaker he had *not* been disassembled. By disassembling the customer messed up the torque values of the woofer mounting bolts (threadloccked btw) on the speaker with the subsequently higher distortion. Hint, the driver resonance couples into the cabinet.



He has a complete lack of understanding of vibration and speaker design. His test where he thinks he proved there is no driver resonance is completely flawed. He sits the speaker on the cabinet. The driver needs to be *stiffly* mounted by its frame, not sat on the heavy magnet to perform this test. The resonance is set up by the specific spring , mass and stiffness of the overall assembly. The magnet must be hanging from the frame not damped by being sat on a surface.



All rubber mounts were fitted. He obviously lost one during his disassembly. It would have been impossible to tighten that particular driver bolt without it fitted. The bolt would have flopped around loose and fallen out without it.



Secondly further sealing is not required with these well nuts as the nut pulls into the hole and squeezes the rubber out completely blocking the hole. He also refitted the rubber well nuts incorrectly as their flange should sit inside the hole in this design. If not the flange will be proud of the surface and cause potential air leaks, which I also suspect he created by his incorrect fitment.



There is no air leak around the rubber mounting well nuts or indeed the tweeter. This can be demonstrated quite simply by depressing the woofer. The passive radiators will push out as you have compressed the air in the cabinet. If there is a leak the passive radiators will slowly return to their rest position. They dont. They stay pushed out.



The wiring had been disturbed by the customers disassembly. At manufacture it is tucked securely behind the damping material into the cabinet corners. The guy has pulled it out.



Fundamentally this customer is incompetent to make these assessments claims and caused the problems by his disassembly of the speaker.

 

[jhaider]

I do not understand. Then what about the dozens of manufacturers that are basically building their business on this forum. Aren't they monetizing as well? So what's the problem with Erin. Because he did cheat? Is it really proven? Proven enough not to let him explain? Not sure what's going on here.

The “problem” is, basically, that a working engineer with a young family has to do things differently to be able to deploy the same very expensive measurement gear as a retired Fortune 100 executive. The community at large benefits from both gentlemen’s efforts, but by the same token a venue’s owner decides what’s acceptable within that venue.

That said, I don’t see how Erin is in scope of discussion of the Korean DUT. Bringing him in is IMO a cheap shot in an otherwise top notch contribution. He didn’t measure the Korean DUT. He could only report on what he observed with the DUT he had. Maybe he used bananas, so the defective snake oil binding posts didn’t reveal their flaws.

 

[beefkabob]

I don't get all the complaints from readers here about Amir and the site. This Nuyes review is one of the most interesting posts ever on the site, and certainly worthy of the front page. Informative and interesting. It's probably better than anything not by Amir, or at least in the top 5. Here's a clear issue. Here's how to fix it. This other guy missed it. Fascinating stuff!

As for March Audio, clearly they have much to learn on design and manufacturing. I hope they take all this free engineering from Nuyes and make a better product.
At least their flaws are largely fixable DIY. As for Erin, like all youtumors, he's a lot into growth... of his audience. Amir doesn't need to allow everyone here. That's his right. Erin has his own platform.

And again, bravo to Nuyes.

 

[ayane]

Last time I checked, we are all adults. HiFi is just an appliance to most people- they turn it on and off and really don't think much more about it. Maybe the vast majority have got it right and us 'audiophiles' are the silly ones?

Yes! I'm obviously not speaking for everyone here, but I'm just an ordinary person too. I just happen to be extremely detail-oriented - call it an engineering mindset - and I like to have a deep and thorough understanding of how things work, especially stuff I use (and derive lots of enjoyment from using!). At the end of the day, the goal is to just enjoy the sound; to have a fantastic, accurate sound system that can deliver high quality listening pleasure. After all, music is what I'm so passionate about; it is love of music that makes me an audiophile, not love of equipment that makes me an electronics-phile. I'm a curious person, and I just find that it's more satisfying to know the ins and outs of how a speaker/amp/DAC is working, so it doesn't just feel like magic, leaving me wondering how it all happens.

Emotions are high, and lots of accusations being levied against the people making this hobby interesting. People make mistakes, but I don't believe that anyone involved has ulterior motives or shady practices. I certainly don't think it's fair to call out hypocrisy over honest mistakes. Let's try to use Hanlon's razor...

My 2 cents regarding the thread topic - the manufacturer made some poor decisions which can be easily remedied. Maybe it's just this one instance and it's a matter of quality control, or maybe it's a lack of proper engineering steps. In either case, the ball is in their court to implement the fixes shown here. I'm really late in the thread to say this, but at least I'm one more voice saying let's please not resort to ad hominem or unproductive negativity. If you have criticisms, please take some time to form those critiques in a constructive way and use the appropriate channels to voice your concerns.

Personal thoughts - I get nervous every time there's a heated thread or negative sentiments and end up lurking instead. This is only gear-oriented audio forum I feel some sanity participating in because it's about concrete, measurable engineering and unassailable science, and not about subjective superstition and irrational magic with ample room for disagreements and fighting. That's why it makes me sad to see negativity. I honestly would have stayed out of the hobby if there wasn't a space for objective, engineering-based discussion to take place, and the more hands are on deck, the better it will be. I hope someday @hardisj and @amirm can join hands again, even if it takes some time for things to cool down.

Edit: removed the word "voodoo"

 

[AudioKC]

I don't get all the complaints from readers here about Amir and the site. This Nuyes review is one of the most interesting posts ever on the site, and certainly worthy of the front page. Informative and interesting. It's probably better than anything not by Amir, or at least in the top 5. Here's a clear issue. Here's how to fix it. This other guy missed it. Fascinating stuff!

As for March Audio, clearly they have much to learn on design and manufacturing. I hope they take all this free engineering from Nuyes and make a better product.
At least their flaws are largely fixable DIY. As for Erin, like all youtumors, he's a lot into growth... of his audience. Amir doesn't need to allow everyone here. That's his right. Erin has his own platform.

And again, bravo to Nuyes.

Well, if he banned, lets stop using his name. He cannot answer.

 

[mmi]

As I just explained, we are not in the business of selling any hi-fi gear. We do large scale projects for wealthy clients. If they want a stereo system in the bedroom, we put in an AVR, a TV (likely one that hides), and a couple of speakers which we build in if we can. Long time ago we decided we have no idea how to make money selling audio gear and got out of it and quick! Our business is all custom and much of it outside of audio. A lighting and shade system for a state may cost as much as $200,000 of business for us! We are not going to chase who can sell a couple of hi-fi speakers.

This is why I am so annoyed when people try to ride our back here and make money from our traffic. I don't allow a cent of commercialization to occur. Sure as heck not going to allow third-parties to do that.

Fair enough Amir. I appreciate the work you do and have learned a lot from this your reviews, this forum and its members. I don't want to contribute any more negativity, and have edited my posts with snippets of your responses so future readers have context and clarity around your business and are not completely basing their thoughts on my posts.

 

[beren777]

• If possible, please move the "amir hypocrite reeeeee" arguments to another thread.
• Please follow up with Purifi to validate the claim made by March Audio: "Further more I have had discussions with both Lars Risbo and Bruno Putzeys from Purifi regarding it. They acknowledge the issue and we have worked out a solution regarding the driver mounting that I am waiting for them to implement in manufacture."
  • If Purifi confirms it is true, it lends credibility to March's rebuttal. If Purifi denies it, well, there you go.

 

[beefkabob]

Well, if he banned, lets stop using his name. He cannot answer.

So what if people use he-who-shall-not-be-named's name. Erin has his own platform. Good for him.

Also, VOLDEMORT! VOLDEMORT! VOLDEMORT! VOLDEMORT! VOLDEMORT! VOLDEMORT! VOLDEMORT! VOLDEMORT!

That felt good.

 

[Doodski]

Fair enough Amir. I appreciate the work you do and have learned a lot from this your reviews, this forum and its members. I don't want to contribute any more negativity, and have edited my posts with snippets of your responses so future readers have context and clarity around your business and are not completely basing their thoughts on my posts.

Please don't edit posts in retrospect unless it is a grammatical error.

 

[098765]

Seeing as my Sointuva's are currently in production and I was concerned, I asked March Audio about the problems suggested by this thread. I got this response. I just included the relevant information. (See BOTH quote boxes!)

So... as always March audio and Alan did, no solution but bunch of excuse. I hoped him to reflect this to his product but he did not. Also It is quite disappointing to see Alan saying "Fundamentally this customer is incompetent to make these assessments claims" to this quality of review. Without validation of PURIFI or any other evidence.

 

[Keith Conroy]

Final measure data


View attachment 214853View attachment 214854View attachment 214855



There was change in bass region as above


View attachment 214856


THD reduced a lot



View attachment 214857




As well as the THD, the multitone test result of the mid - bass frequency is also improved.

Finally all of the improvements were done, and “Sointuva WG - DC speaker gallery version” was safely returned to the owner’s hands.




So, to summarize, there is a problem caused by internal resonance which is worsened as it leaks through the gaps. But this could be drastically improved with sophisticated sealing at the binding posts and insert nuts, and additional absorption at the inside of the enclosure.

Last mystery:
Why did Erin unusually not include 86dB SPL THD data to Sointuva WG’s review?

- The End -

As hard as it might be Alan March you need
to learn from this! I worked as a quality control engineer for a large major speaker company. Developing quality end of line testing and then maintaining it is not trivial. A standard production reference needs to be developed then all EOL tests need to be set up around it. Nothing can be left to chance. Everything must be data driven. Alan fix the design issues then set up a well defined quality control program to assure unit to unit consistency. Keep a reference standard in house to allow daily test fixture calibration. YOU ALREADY HAVE A LOT OF TIME INVESTED IN YOUR DESIGN! THESE SORTS OF ISSUES CAN DAMAGE FAITH IN YOUR BRAND BEYOND REPAIR!.................FIX THEM & POST THE QUALITY CONTROL FIXES..??