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The REAL Problem of March Audio's Sointuva WG (Review, Measurements and Reinforcements with Klippel device)

amirm

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Alan’s response was measured, polite and customer friendly. I find his replies where professional and it to be concerning that some anonymous enthusiast generate general allegations from this.
? Op is a reviewer. He tested the same speaker that got glowing write up from Erin and was finding serious issues in its performance. Alan performed no investigation, instead making it the reviewers problem to prove the issues beyond any doubt. The only way for this was for the reviewer to actually find the causes and fix them. Even then, there is no acknowledgement from Alan of all of these problems, asking other customers to look at the issues and if so, help them fix it.

I go through this all the time myself with products that don't perform. I don't care how polite a manufacturer is. I care that when careful objective testing is showing problem, they take the problems seriously and work to replicate, or show that their sample under identical condition doesn't have that problem. That is the constructive path to work with a reviewer and/or user with strong evidence of issues.

Let's remember that Alan created a shadow account and praised Erin's review left and right until we caught up to him and terminated his other persona. This is not an above board individual so don't give him credit for something that didn't amount to anything. A bit of discount to a buyer of multi-thousand dollar speaker wouldn't appease me.

Where does this leave other buyers? They don't have our reviewer to check their speakers. The "we test every speaker" line doesn't work when this sample is clearly not tested.

As for Erin, I like to understand if his sample for sure did not have these problems. And that was not the reason for missing 86 dBSPL where one of the main problems was seen. He received not one, but two versions of this speaker. At the time, I commented that buyers would have no idea of what version they are getting and this thread proves it. So he has a role in this as well to clean up.
 

peniku8

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Screwing into mdf with the proper screw designed for such material is no issue at.
If worried add a little wood glue to the pre drilled holes, let it dry and then install with a little glue on the screw tip.
I've had 0 issues with MDF.
Can you link some screws you can recommend with MDF? I never had any luck getting screws to grip well in MDF, except when using 6mm SPAX, which is obviously not feasible for loudspeakers.
I'm using 3.5x20mm SPAX like in the pic below, which only work if you have at least 15mm of material to screw into and then you still have to be extremely careful. Of course I don't pre-drill holes. I moved on to a different, superior material anyways, but I'm still curious.

71CCX8ihfHL._AC_SL1500_.jpg
 

sunandmoon

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phoenixdogfan

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Super disappointing. These kind of QC issues should never happen on any high end speaker, let alone a $4200 a pair hand built system with cutting edge drivers. Extremely, extremely disappointing.

BTW, this also illustrates the danger of modding speakers. When you open that cabinet, unless you really know what you are doing, there's a chance you won't put the cabinet back the way the manufacturer intended it. I know KEF speakers have bolts running the length of the cabinet front to back, and those bolts are tensioned to a specifified amount of torque. That tensioning contributes the the quietness of the KEF box. If you take it apart and don't retension the bolts exactly, or don't form a proper seal, with those bolts, that can have real world audible consequences. A box either improperly designed or assembled can defintiely degrade performance as seems to be proven in the review of this product.

Alan March should be very solicitous of his customers, and be willing to remedy this defect promptly at no expense to the people who already paid a hefty premium to own this speaker.
 
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Spocko

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Super disappointing. These kind of QC issues should never happen on any high end speaker, let alone a $4200 a pair hand built system with cutting edge drivers. Extremely, extremely disappointing.
For $4K (or less) there are so many well designed speakers available. I would just get a pair of active Genelec 8331A with GLM DSP and call it a day because I just saved money on a matching amplifier.
 

Axo1989

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I think transparent moderation advice (eg tagged, in-thread description of moderator advice/action) is preferable to the often invisible work done here, which in cases like this requires later explanations. Not an overall criticism of this site/forum, and no offence intended though.

On the actual topic of speaker QA, the OP investigation are certainly interesting, language issues notwithstanding. The maker of my speakers (and many others) pays a lot of attention to mounting speaker drive units and binding posts (mounting plugs, specific torques, gaskets, that sort of thing) . But my purchase of a demo pair came with a single screw missing, one that attached the metal feet to the body. In that case it was dealer disassembly/reassembly not manufacturer QA but same result. The small hole created a slight but audible whistle from air turbulence when the speaker was played loud enough.

It wasn't a drama, they sent me a new screw (a small bolt really) and gasket when we worked it out.
 
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Billy Budapest

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Alan created a shadow account and praised Erin's review left and right until we caught up to him and terminated his other persona.
That obviously is not ethical. Were the posts made by the shadow account removed from the forum? If not, have they been tagged in some way to indicate to forum readers that the credibility of the posts is disputed?
 

azzy_mazzy

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I would just get a pair of active Genelec 8331A with GLM DSP
the 8331A is not a fit replacement for this speaker, this speaker with its problems still has more output than those Genelecs and more bass. the Genelec 8350A seems a better fit to me at least (if you want the active speakers and GLM).
 
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amarsicola

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Hey guys just relax and take a deep breath before pointing fingers to Erin with inquisitive suspect. He has done soooo much for the audio community, including providing high quality content on this forum. He doesn't deserve any ban nor charge of corruption, and he should be given all the opportunity to explain his thoughts. First and foremost we are a community of friends, and we are the objectivist party, so please no accusation unless objective proof of misconduct is crystal clear. Torquemada's methods should be the past.
 

TabCam

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Low at 96 can't be excuse for skipping high 86. In small listening rooms 86dB is much more important than 96.
I like them from 76 (matbe even 66 for lte night listening) up to where it goes beyond 10% at 500-5000 Hz or at max SPL, whichever comes first.

The reason is most speakers are designed and listened to far field which can take quite a bit more power than 86 dB at 1m, especially with relative inefficient designs.

It also shows a kind of trend. I like to listen Some Heissmann designs show a decrease going louder, most others fall apart at a certain SPL.
 

MAB

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Too much attention paid to distortion measurements, total waste of time ...

Imho, this is a well designed loudspeaker... Please big mouths stop using meaning less measurements with a view to build/destroy reputations...
This is a misstatement.
Did you see this?
index.php


And if so, please see the measurements that follow to show the distortion that was dramatically reduced. And the measurements and root-cause multiple on issues demonstrated reduction in distortion.
index.php

The binding posts alone will whistle their own tune:facepalm: no matter the banana plug or wire you might use...
And, these drivers are touted as the most powerful, longest excursion, most linear, etc...
It's unfortunate. All of it seems fixable in the manufacturing of the speakers. It's just going to be audibly wrong for all of the huffing and puffing noises, the woofers and passives will have a large box-loss term in their alignment.
It's just not right, verified by measurement, and only a tin ear can't hear it.
Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more.
 

Doodski

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Erin's public livestream response.


Btw why was Erin banned? Seems like a okay guy, never seen him act up here?
He linked @ his channel at the ASR Forum and that was deemed spamming.
 

Lbstyling

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Erin is currently responding to this in a stream on his YouTube channel
And then some. A lot of stuff going on.

Recommended watch 'egos in audio'.

Kinda feeling sorry for the guy TBH. He sounds really cut up.

Erin is an absolute legend who has done more than most for the betterment of the audio world. He is top 10 all time IMO. The guy deserves some serious respect at this point.

I hope all this can be sorted with the up most respect and professionalism
 
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beagleman

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Another reason not to buy DIY.

((I realize this is a very volatile thread, so I will not reply with my usual snark and humor and so on.))


But quality control issues, and mistakes are part of all manufacturing, Pro level, retail level and diy.

I have seen diy products that are better made than many retail offerings, and others that were lacking as you say.

But using a blanket statement, will often infuriate a lot of people, as there are many members in the forum that are not only into diy speakers, but have moved from Diy for personal use, into small businesses.
 

Toni Mas

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This is a misstatement.
Did you see this?
index.php


And if so, please see the measurements that follow to show the distortion that was dramatically reduced. And the measurements and root-cause multiple on issues demonstrated reduction in distortion.
index.php

The binding posts alone will whistle their own tune:facepalm: no matter the banana plug or wire you might use...
And, these drivers are touted as the most powerful, longest excursion, most linear, etc...
It's unfortunate. All of it seems fixable in the manufacturing of the speakers. It's just going to be audibly wrong for all of the huffing and puffing noises, the woofers and passives will have a large box-loss term in their alignment.
It's just not right, verified by measurement, and only a tin ear can't hear it.
Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more.
Please stop making sense with distortion and meaningless loudspeaker measurements, by far the weakest part and mostly pseudo science infected of ASR...
 
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amirm

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Tks

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He linked @ his channel at the ASR Forum and that was deemed spamming.
You know how you can shoot someone and then send them to jail really fast without warning due to severity? A spam offense leading to a permanent ban? Surly one or two warnings would be enough to get any sane person to stop? Or did he just say he doesn't care and said he will keep doing it?
 
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