The REAL Problem of March Audio's Sointuva WG (Review, Measurements and Reinforcements with Klippel device)

[Curvature]

Interesting, I've never seen anyone make this argument. It's usually the opposite..a good crossover and budget drivers can make a great design and a bad crossover with great drivers is still just a bad design.

I'm not saying it's a bad speaker or design. It's good. It's also not for just anyone to understand how to pick and integrate drivers, cabinets and waveguides. But is it really that much of a step forward for speaker design? I don't think so, personally.

What's hard to accept is the inconsistency of manufacturing and lack of QA, at least in this sample of the product. Other companies have had similar issues, too. The excellent KH DSP series from Neumann had audible vibrations because of issues with the back panel of the cabinet IIRC. These were promptly addressed and as far as I know the company acted completely professionally with customers, with dealers accepting returns and exchanges and so forth. While March Audio can't find it in himself to admit errors or oversights.

 

[Curvature]

Current P801 mono amps based on the TOTL Purifi modules have SOTA buffer boards too, as shown on measurements on his forum. These boards are his in house developed AFAIK.

And for the speaker, there are hundreds of 3rd party parts to choose and match. I don't think it is a coincidence that he chose and built a speaker on top of the charts above hundreds of others. He clearly knows what he is doing.

Ranking table of speaker's measurements

www.spinorama.org

I'm aware. All I'm claiming is that we should not overemphasize his expertise or business sense.

 

[eksine]

I had an Acura TL-S that suffered from those dreaded 5 speed clutch pack failures—and other than that, it was a totally awesome car. I think it had something to do with the ATF channels not being wide enough, or not having enough of them. Honda kept issuing bandaids to fix the problem until they finally redesigned the transmission. But up until that point, it wasn’t IF your transmission would fail, it was WHEN.

YES you are right, I had help with someone on the odyclub forum who pointed me in the right direction, he and others told me that the 2004 Honda Odyssey, on some models they were reliable as a tank. the guy that was helping me was a researcher by profession so I tried to mimic him. I found that on the 2004 Odyssey in the parts diagram at some point during the year a set of thrust washers for a specific clutch pack had all been discontinued and replaced by a new thrust washer , that had the same specs. I then looked at the 2002 Odyssey that I was working on and found that all of its thrust washers for that clutch pack was also discontinued and replaced by separate thrust washers, except all of their specs were also the same. Originally the thrust washers were a set of items with different specs which you could pick from. So I believe that they simply enlarged the holes and so there is no longer a set to choose from but just one because you only needed one washer. So to any Honda of that era what you would need to do is Dremel out the hole for your thrust washer or take it to a machine shop.

The new thrust washer had ATF oil channels that were like three times as big as the original. I also was able to install shift kits which actually enhanced the original transmission design and installed clutch/ friction discs that were more heavy duty. I posted like 30 videos of me dissecting and rebuilding the transmission and removing it on a popular video website

 

[eksine]

This speaker is similar to the PDP MUM series of speakers: great, expensive drivers and a simple cabinet. The real innovation comes from the driver designers. The crossover software available now allows relatively simple modeling and simulation given that the drivers are basically flawless within their operating bands.

March Audio's previous products were the Khadas Tone Board in a box DAC and the Purifi amp module in a box amp. I'm not saying these are bad products. They just don't show special ingenuity.

Those are the same woofers! And it's even 3 way which I prefer. It's available in silk or beryllium tweeters and mid-range. The video says that their beryllium drivers are not harsh like typical metal tweeters. Do you think that's actually true because I thought metal tweeters sounded really harsh. Do you think I should play it safe and get the silk tweeter version or go with what I think they recommend which is the beryllium?

 

[AudioJester]

Who is "we"?

Lol, u can replace "we" with whatever pronoun you prefer.
If you think March is a better buy than Ascilabs - go for it!

 

[SIY]

In my opinion, you have to be super desperate to buy anything from him. And if you did, heaven help you if you ever find an issue with it.

You have evolved from a forum owner to a direct competitor. IMO, you should not be commenting about the product or the company. Let anyone not in your business position say what they think, but it's inappropriate from you.

 

[Luvchampagne]

Those are the same woofers! And it's even 3 way which I prefer. It's available in silk or beryllium tweeters and mid-range. The video says that their beryllium drivers are not harsh like typical metal tweeters. Do you think that's actually true because I thought metal tweeters sounded really harsh. Do you think I should play it safe and get the silk tweeter version or go with what I think they recommend which is the beryllium?

Did you read that thread? These PDPMUM guys seem to be no different than March Audio and in terms of transparency and scientific testing, much worse. Their excuses for not having anechoic or Klippel testing or spinorama is clearly just a dodge.

Customers are happy so not a priority.
We're a 2 man show so no time or resources even though we're charging $10k+.
So what if the measurements are not very good. So what that the production tuning is mediocre.
We solved it and will release it. Why not fix it before you released it?

These are clearly prototypes. Not production models.

Does that really sound like a speaker company that you want to spend $10k+?

 

[Holmz]

Those are the same woofers! And it's even 3 way which I prefer. It's available in silk or beryllium tweeters and mid-range. The video says that their beryllium drivers are not harsh like typical metal tweeters. Do you think that's actually true because I thought metal tweeters sounded really harsh. Do you think I should play it safe and get the silk tweeter version or go with what I think they recommend which is the beryllium?

If I could have swung the deal on the Sointuva speakers I would have.
I just was not able to close that, and ended up with a different brand of 3 ways.

If you were in Au or NZ or SE-Asia, then the Sointuva make a lot more sense.

But get whatever float’s your boat.

Did you read that thread? These PDPMUM guys seem to be no different than March Audio and in terms of transparency and scientific testing, much worse. Their excuses for not having anechoic or Klippel testing or spinorama is clearly just a dodge.
…

@eksine Erin of Erin’s audio, as well as Amir do Klipple testing.
You could maybe reach out to one or both of them and see if they would test the speaker.
Probably having it shipped direct to them would be the cheapest and easiest.
Then at least the next fellow or lady would have the Klipple data.
( have sent speakers to both Erin as well as Amir.)

I know that Alan had sent a Sointuva pair to Erin, so that data exists, and Erin’s review if worth a read IMO.

There are 2 reviews I think…

That part around 4:30 talking about the loudness is 100% correct.
I pulled out the phone and the NIOSH app was hitting peaks of 100dB and a mean around 90 dB.
It sounded quiet, but what triggered me to pull out the phone - was that we could not hold a conversation.

 

[amirm]

You have evolved from a forum owner to a direct competitor. IMO, you should not be commenting about the product or the company. Let anyone not in your business position say what they think, but it's inappropriate from you.

I don't manufacture speakers. And my opinion of him has been the same for years. I have unique knowledge of him that others lack. So no one else is going to be able to say what I can.

 

[Curvature]

Those are the same woofers! And it's even 3 way which I prefer. It's available in silk or beryllium tweeters and mid-range. The video says that their beryllium drivers are not harsh like typical metal tweeters. Do you think that's actually true because I thought metal tweeters sounded really harsh. Do you think I should play it safe and get the silk tweeter version or go with what I think they recommend which is the beryllium?

It's all about frequency response. As long as you know how to shape the radiation pattern you can whatever tweeter works.

 

[SIY]

So no one else is going to be able to say what I can.

It's your forum, do as you like.

 

[Curvature]

Did you read that thread? These PDPMUM guys seem to be no different than March Audio and in terms of transparency and scientific testing, much worse. Their excuses for not having anechoic or Klippel testing or spinorama is clearly just a dodge.

Customers are happy so not a priority.
We're a 2 man show so no time or resources even though we're charging $10k+.
So what if the measurements are not very good. So what that the production tuning is mediocre.
We solved it and will release it. Why not fix it before you released it?

These are clearly prototypes. Not production models.

Does that really sound like a speaker company that you want to spend $10k+?

I got the sense that PDP are using the convenient tactic of "just listen" for now. I think they feel the pressure to release measurements and might even offer to do that for future models when they are sure that what shows up will be favorable.

 

[Holmz]

I don't manufacture speakers. And my opinion of him has been the same for years. I have unique knowledge of him that others lack. So no one else is going to be able to say what I can.

Yep.

But putting aside the personal stuff, and sticking solely to the tests that I have seen, shows that the speaker are objectively and subjectively very good.
(There was the one out of Korea, that had the screw torqued down, motor-basket resonance etc.)
However the science is clear in that respect to the Klipple testing that Erin did, that they are near the top.

Whether one wants to layer in the personal objections is a bit beyond the science.
And other brands have issues with refunds, repairs, ethics, etc. that makes them personal and business model less than ideal.

It is up to the buyer to layer in their weighting of all the data in order to make a decision. Personal, subjective, and objective.


However I’m guessing you’re saying that the objective part cannot overcome the rest of the knowledge you have?

 

[Liberal Democracy]

He literally defends everything to a fault. His first product was a rebadged DAC board that he put in a box. He fought tooth and nail with the membership when this was discovered. There was no "creation" going on there

Those were the days , that was a nightmare to deal with !

He was quite the opportunist in that instance, thats for sure and caught us all with our pants down, including me .

However, many small manufacturers struggle to maintain QC and dont have the money frankly to back products as they should , plus being a one man band is stressful so ones not always going to be at ones best imo . Those are things potential customers , when dealing with micro producers , should consider .

Singling Alan out is a bit unfair , shit happens , one could argue wrapping his speakers in that wood type was asking for trouble but then it dose look lovely !

Iv got a pair of his mono amps , work like a charm , have done for years but the fancy touch button on one of them dose seem to turn itself on now and then .. oh well..

He is hard headed , for sure , thats likely a asset for him as well as a liability, now , who dose that remind me of.

Let's remember hes not here to defend himself, so sticking the boot in too hard just isn't cricket is it !

 

[janbth]

For the record, I own a pair of Sointuva AWGs, and am happy with them. There are no issues with sound quality or build quality that I'm aware of. The cabinets are Jarrah wood and they look great. I did have an issue with cracking (!). (The humidity in my apartment gets very low in the winter.) I contacted Alan about this, and he took them in and replaced the cabinets. Under warranty, so no costs for me.

 

[A Surfer]

You have evolved from a forum owner to a direct competitor. IMO, you should not be commenting about the product or the company. Let anyone not in your business position say what they think, but it's inappropriate from you.

I tend to agree, it isn't the look or tone I would want to set. Optics matter and where possible I am a firm believer in taking the high road. We all have bad moments though.

 

[amper42]

I tend to agree, it isn't the look or tone I would want to set. Optics matter and where possible I am a firm believer in taking the high road. We all have bad moments though.

I don't think it's bad form to warn others when you have had a poor customer service experience with March Audio. It's certainly NOT a company I would buy anything else from. I found someone in the USA who could handle repairs and realized there are plenty of other companies that provide superior product.

 

[A Surfer]

I don't think it's bad form to warn others when you have had a poor customer service experience with March Audio. It's certainly NOT a company I would buy anything else from. I found someone in the USA who could handle repairs and realized there are plenty of other companies that provide superior product.

I think it is how we go about delivering our message that matters most. The same thing can often times be said several different ways, or perhaps not even at all unless truly required.

 

[eksine]

Did you read that thread? These PDPMUM guys seem to be no different than March Audio and in terms of transparency and scientific testing, much worse. Their excuses for not having anechoic or Klippel testing or spinorama is clearly just a dodge.

Customers are happy so not a priority.
We're a 2 man show so no time or resources even though we're charging $10k+.
So what if the measurements are not very good. So what that the production tuning is mediocre.
We solved it and will release it. Why not fix it before you released it?

These are clearly prototypes. Not production models.

Does that really sound like a speaker company that you want to spend $10k+?

Yeah I actually stumbled across that thread afterwards. I'm fairly new to audio so all of the drama surrounding speakers is really confusing to say the least. Yeah it doesn't make any sense why they wouldn't do any measurements or use a scientific method either.

I didn't read the entire thread and I didn't check if they posted measurements plus I wouldn't understand it anyways. But if they're literally designing the speaker based on "hey it sounds cool to us" then I completely understand your guys's point of view.

 

[Luvchampagne]

Yeah I actually stumbled across that thread afterwards. I'm fairly new to audio so all of the drama surrounding speakers is really confusing to say the least. Yeah it doesn't make any sense why they wouldn't do any measurements or use a scientific method either.

I didn't read the entire thread and I didn't check if they posted measurements plus I wouldn't understand it anyways. But if they're literally designing the speaker based on "hey it sounds cool to us" then I completely understand your guys's point of view.

My $0.02 - taking expensive drivers in a simple box and charging a premium price.
Very little engineering.
Measurements expose that. So why give measurements?
I think this is fine for a speaker kit company that charges a very slight premium over the cost of the components.
But charging a big premium means bringing some value or some cache. Not sure they are doing either.
The drama is over the evasiveness and the if it sounds fine why measure? Well if that's really the case, then why market and advertise state of the art components. For the purpose of selling a high performance speaker.
Would be like a car company saying the car is fast and handles great. But refusing to let it be tested. Doesn't make sense.