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The REAL Problem of March Audio's Sointuva WG (Review, Measurements and Reinforcements with Klippel device)

goat76

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Lol! (well I agree with you) T'was a strange apology anyway. (I have no hand in this thread, as I've only been following it casually, and generally seems like a storm in a teacup).
For March Audio, this is probably not a little storm in a teacup. Things like this can destroy a small company.

As an outsider looking in, it seems to me this debacle has turned out to be a very one-sided affair. I think ASR should, at least for a limited time, let Alan respond in this thread because there are always two sides to the coin. Or people should at least read what he got to say on the matter on the March Audio forum, it can be found under Technical and the thread is named "Incompetent Internet Reviewers - Beware!".
 

McFly

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Haha, measuring a 380hz frame resonance in the paper woofer then looking for the same resonance in the Aluminium woofer which has a completely redesigned frame, probably to sort out the former issue. I have both drivers in front of me, very different frames.

But Kudos to the apology, and credit where it’s due on the review effort of the speaker.
 

restorer-john

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For March Audio, this is probably not a little storm in a teacup. Things like this can destroy a small company.

As an outsider looking in, it seems to me this debacle has turned out to be a very one-sided affair. I think ASR should, at least for a limited time, let Alan respond in this thread because there are always two sides to the coin. Or people should at least read what he got to say on the matter on the March Audio forum, it can be found under Technical and the thread is named "Incompetent Internet Reviewers - Beware!".

Hardly, Mr @goat76 . You weren't here, nor were involved in the entire utter fiasco that got Alan March banned in the first (second actually) place. Put it this way; the entire 'interaction' was so heated, so unprofessional, and so personal, that the thread was deleted in its entirety from ASR. But, if you want specifics, some of us still have the email (blow by blow) notifications as it exploded over a period of days. It was not pretty.

And, for the record, it was back in March (how ironic is that?) 2021. As you say, you are 'an outsider looking in'...
 
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OP
Nuyes

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For March Audio, this is probably not a little storm in a teacup. Things like this can destroy a small company.

As an outsider looking in, it seems to me this debacle has turned out to be a very one-sided affair. I think ASR should, at least for a limited time, let Alan respond in this thread because there are always two sides to the coin. Or people should at least read what he got to say on the matter on the March Audio forum, it can be found under Technical and the thread is named "Incompetent Internet Reviewers - Beware!".
Let's leave all the technical issues aside.

Again, I do not disassemble speakers without anyone's permission.

I've measured 80 speakers so far received from an anonymous sponsor.

I've never disassembled anyone else's speakers, and the Sointuva WG is my first case.
Even that, after A/B testing, Alan didn't have a proper response, so this is the speaker's owner's choice.

Alan says it's all my fault.
However, we know that a normal-minded person will not disassemble other people's objects without permission.


And something has become clear.
It's a binding post's leakage.

Did Alan properly thank the reviewer for pointing out the manufacturer's flaws and mistakes?


As a commonsense manufacturer, it is right to thank the consumer for notifying the defect with an apology.
 

beren777

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Less axe grinding from all would be nice. The title of this thread itself is antagonistic and suggests bias. I believe the reviewer could have done more to validate certain claims, especially where third parties like Purifi and Erin were involved, before publishing. I also believe the reviewer damaged his credibility by tampering with modifying the device under test.

Better to have published his data as "Observations of a March Audio Sointuva" and invite peer review. We would have had a chance to ask the reviewer to check the original torque of the woofer screws, for example.
 
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Postlan

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Less axe grinding from all would be nice. The title of this thread itself is antagonistic and suggests bias. I believe the reviewer could have done more to validate certain claims, especially where third parties like Purifi and Erin were involved, before publishing. I also believe the reviewer damaged his credibility by tampering with the device under test.

Better to have published his data as "Observations of a March Audio Sointuva" and invite peer review. We would have had a chance to ask the reviewer to check the original torque of the woofer screws, for example.
There are 2 things that OP wants us to discuss, a potential speaker flaw and a potential customer service flaw.
 
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Nuyes

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Less axe grinding from all would be nice. The title of this thread itself is antagonistic and suggests bias. I believe the reviewer could have done more to validate certain claims, especially where third parties like Purifi and Erin were involved, before publishing. I also believe the reviewer damaged his credibility by tampering with the device under test.

Better to have published his data as "Observations of a March Audio Sointuva" and invite peer review. We would have had a chance to ask the reviewer to check the original torque of the woofer screws, for example.
Differences for bolt torque have already been reported.
Fortunately, I recorded the measurement data for comparison before proceeding.



If there were reviewers who destroy other people's equipment without permission, Korea would have been a very pitiful country.
 

tmtomh

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I read through the suggested "Incompetent Internet Reviewers beware" from Marchaudio.com.

Not a good look, Mr March, not a good look.

I read all 4 parts of Alan March’s post there, and I respectfully disagree with your assessment. There are definitely a couple of moments of “excess heat” in March’s statement, and at least one claim he makes about Amir’s testing methods is simply false (that Amir supposedly doesn’t test amps for load dependence).

But most of what he says is clearly presented and well-argued. In particular, he appears to be completely right about the driver-resonance issue. He might be wrong on some counts, and I don’t dispute that he’s shown a temper online that got him banned here. But IMHO his explanations on this matter are in no way, shape, or form a “bad look.” Quite the contrary.
 

beren777

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Differences for bolt torque have already been reported.
Fortunately, I recorded the measurement data for comparison before proceeding.



If there were reviewers who destroy other people's equipment without permission, Korea would have been a very pitiful country.
I don't see the torque measurements. I see frequency measurements made after tightening the bolts to an unknown value. If I missed the actual torque measurements, I apologize.

What was the torque of the woofer bolts for Sample A and Sample B as originally received by you?
 
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Nuyes

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I don't see the torque measurements. I see frequency measurements made after tightening the bolts to an unknown value. If I missed the actual torque measurements, I apologize.

What was the torque of the woofer bolts for Sample A and Sample B as originally received by you?
I don't know the original torque value (March Audio doesn't disclose this).

And I compared them after fixing them as tight as I could.

One thing is for sure, they were all different.
 

beren777

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I don't know the original torque value (March Audio doesn't disclose this).

And I compared them after fixing them as tight as I could.

One thing is for sure, they were all different.
We don't know what they were at the time you received the speakers.

We don't know what they are supposed to be.

We don't know what they were after you tightened them as tight as you could (along with other modifications).

Normally this could be seen as nitpicking, but it's relevant to this particular issue. I'm not trying to beat you up, but hopefully you see now why it matters in this case.
 

restorer-john

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We don't know what they were at the time you received the speakers.

We don't know what they are supposed to be.

We don't know what they were after you tightened them as tight as you could (along with other modifications).

Normally this could be seen as nitpicking, but it's relevant to this particular issue. I'm not trying to beat you up, but hopefully you see now why it matters in this case.

You've actually never assembled, dismantled or ever tested a loudspeaker have you?

March's BS knows no bounds. He will attempt to blame anyone, everyone he can, instead of owning up and dealing with it.
 

tmtomh

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I don't know the original torque value (March Audio doesn't disclose this).

And I compared them after fixing them as tight as I could.

One thing is for sure, they were all different.

This is a deeply irresponsible line of argument you’re making. The answer is you don’t know, and you should stop trying to pretend that you do.
 

Sokel

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It's not so hard to get close to the torque it originally had if you have the proper tool.You just test the unassembled one with the very tool starting very light and adjusting it as you go very slowly.
When you reach the point that the bolts start moving you're close,you write down what the tool says and you're close to original.
 

restorer-john

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This is a deeply irresponsible line of argument you’re making. The answer is you don’t know, and you should stop trying to pretend that you do.

And you (with the utmost respect) should stop trying to paint him into a place of incompetence when you fully know that driver screw torque in a wood/mdf speaker cabinet is hardly rocket science.
 

tmtomh

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And you (with the utmost respect) should stop trying to paint him into a place of incompetence when you fully know that driver screw torque in a wood/mdf speaker cabinet is hardly rocket science.

Not the issue.

And as usual you are unwilling or incapable of showing a single shred of accountability for your hyperbole and personal attacks (not saying you're attacking me - talking about your prior comment attacking others).

Own up or shut up.
 
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DSJR

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I was once 'taught' (you know which UK brands 'taught' me in the late 70's onwards) to tighten speaker bolts up as tightly as they'd go (almost to crushing the T-Nuts used into the baffle) - and then I learned...

I think it's difficult for lay people or even inexperienced pro's (I'm not in the slightest pointing any fingers here I should add) to really get a 'feel' for what seems ok tighness (how do you identify 'firmly but not excessively tight) without providing a suggested torque setting. When you've assembled or serviced a few, the sense of what seems 'right tightness' comes with experience and of course, those drivers using gaskets need to have the gasket crushing over a short time taken into account - a then mostly pro speaker very dear to my heart came from the factory with the tweeter bolts just about holding the driver in place and I could undo said flush bolt just by placing a finger on top and rotating it anti-clockwise (I did mention it and they said they'd look into it which I believe they did). I 'checked' my current speakers a few years back (grilles on mine were difficult to prise off) and they were absolutely firmly tight after eleven years!

So seriously with these, if a specific torque settling all but solves the 'issue' (this driver seems so darned good otherwise that the 380Hz resonance sticks out - other commercial drivers I think would totally mask it), I'd get a reliable torque driver (or a few to check accuracy) and give the settings to any interested parties. Simple really.

Weren't those leaky 4mm connectors of the *Tube Connector* type? Another reason not to use them in a high end speaker like this. Bloody stupid things imo!
 
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