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The REAL Problem of March Audio's Sointuva WG (Review, Measurements and Reinforcements with Klippel device)

Jasperous

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I don’t see any of the videos from either Erin or March Audio, they’re all set to private
 

amirm

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https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?help/terms/ contains no mention of monetization. If it's a bright line, shouldn't it be specifically defined along with guidelines?

Am I at risk of a ban if I post a Youtube link because I might be accidentally helping someone else monetize ASR?
Definitely not. The only risk is for self-promotion which can only occur if you post a sponsored link that benefits you, etc. You also wouldn't be banned immediately. You would be getting warning, messages, communications, etc. Banning is the last, last resort for major contributors to the forum.
 

Trdat

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I am not gonna get stuck in the detail but I have been a member of ASR since 2019 and have read most of Alan's discussions, debates and arguments on the site and he is a thourough guy who has his own testing equipment and works closely with science. Coming from an amatuer it is clear to me that perhaps he has cut some corners but in now way should we doubt his integrity. I also have no idea why he was banned plus I admit his response was a little weird but lets not be too quick to judge, when things like this are can always be miscontrued.

I am happy the thread starter has written some comments for us amatuers to learn from but we all should be mature enough to understand that were not talking about rogue non scienfitic based speaker manufacturers rather a hard working engineer using everything in his power to design a competent speaker. Many of the top brands can't even get close and dont' even know the literature. We are a audio forum that helps even the best at their game to overcome challenges.
 

BDWoody

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https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?help/terms/ contains no mention of monetization. If it's a bright line, shouldn't it be specifically defined along with guidelines?

Am I at risk of a ban if I post a Youtube link because I might be accidentally helping someone else monetize ASR?

Maufucturers, and any individual who stands to directly benefit from the membership here have a separate agreement that they are expected to live within. That is sent to them and agreed to before they are tagged.

When people can't keep themselves within the boundaries that we make clear, repeatedly, they risk disqualifying themselves from access to this potential source of revenue.

HIM posting links to his monetized videos, no matter how many or few are watching them, then telling people to go post their comments there, was simply the last straw, not the first one.

I think many would be surprised at the efforts made to try to keep members of value (which he certainly was), but at some point they run out of chances to simply behave themselves and live within the clearly stated expectations.

No one celebrates this, but people make their choices.
 

amirm

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I just didn't agree that Erin's work passed the bar for monetized.
He did so and heavily before we warned him repeatedly. His original posts were full of pleading for donations, sponsored links, etc. Almost all of his review pages end with sponsorship links and asking for money. Just to show you that I am not hand picking anything, here is what is posted at the bottom of his last PE speaker test:

1656353566956.png


The bar doesn't get more clear than this. Yet, as I noted in the last post, we allow such links to continue when members post them. We simply ask that people in the industry not do so for their own content. If we don't enforce this rule, then everyone will feel entitled to use as as a source of traffic and advertising. And that tarnishes our image beyond littering the forum with commercial content.
 

amirm

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Coming from an amatuer it is clear to me that perhaps he has cut some corners but in now way should we doubt his integrity.
I would. Just last night I had to delete another one of his puppet accounts. He has created others where he pretended to be a customer and praised his speaker, customer service, etc.

What you say was true before he started to make audio products. He was an early member and a delight to have here. Then he got into business with a DAC board that he put in a box and sold for high premium. It was pulling teeth by members to get him to come clean on this. Meanwhile I got accused of protecting him because "he was my friend." Money corrupts people sad to say.

This doesn't say he is dishonest with everything he does. Not at all. I can only share my direct and personal experience with him over a number of years. And that experience points strongly at lack of ethics by my standards.
 

Trdat

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I would. Just last night I had to delete another one of his puppet accounts. He has created others where he pretended to be a customer and praised his speaker, customer service, etc.

What you say was true before he started to make audio products.
I had a feeling there was going to be more to it and that perhaps his move towards marketing his audio range slipped him into the"doubtful zone"
He was an early member and a delight to have here. Then he got into business with a DAC board that he put in a box and sold for high premium. It was pulling teeth by members to get him to come clean on this. Meanwhile I got accused of protecting him because "he was my friend." Money corrupts people sad to say.
He was a delight to have, I remember clearly. People do that they sell for high premium even some of the other manufacturers do that here on ASR as well although I have proufound respect for them but it is a common attribute when trying to sell products. And if a group of members have pulled together and all admit he is coming close to the mark of dubious or high priced products then a subtle post like yours will clear the air and it seems it has.

I'm just not a fan of the bashing, which in all fairness the thread wasn't really bashing him at all its people like Danny that deserve the bashing don't think Alan is at that level yet so just thought a post might balance the analysis on the situation.
This doesn't say he is dishonest with everything he does. Not at all. I can only share my direct and personal experience with him over a number of years. And that experience points strongly at lack of ethics by my standards.
See your point.
 

cavedriver

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He did so and heavily before we warned him repeatedly. His original posts were full of pleading for donations, sponsored links, etc. Almost all of his review pages end with sponsorship links and asking for money. Just to show you that I am not hand picking anything, here is what is posted at the bottom of his last PE speaker test:

View attachment 215127

The bar doesn't get more clear than this. Yet, as I noted in the last post, we allow such links to continue when members post them. We simply ask that people in the industry not do so for their own content. If we don't enforce this rule, then everyone will feel entitled to use as as a source of traffic and advertising. And that tarnishes our image beyond littering the forum with commercial content.
I understand that he puts this stuff on his youtube videos, and yes he may be trying to make a profit, although I would remember that you used to post comments at the end of your reviews about problems with your house, etc. that a donation would help ameliorate the cost of reviews, and I certainly appreciate that these reviews cost time and money, both precious commodities. I don't know what Erin's economics are but knowing how much it costs to ship speakers I doubt he's making any significant amount of money and is more likely barely defraying his costs, and I'm sure you also welcome contributions that help you cover the cost of running this site and creating these reviews. I really don't see it as anything more than that. If he kept all references to patreon, paypal, his video comments, etc, out of any review content he cross-posted on here, and if none of his reviews were the result of manufacturers or dealers compensating him for reviews, would you still ban him?
 

Nicky991

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First post from a long-time lurker. Amir's reviews are so very, very competent in a field marked for decades by ignorance and irreproducibility, and many of the members obviously know what they are talking about.

I'm reading this thread because I have Sointuvas on order. Two things stand out. First, the astonishing skill and persistence of Mr. Nuyes. I can only wonder what other non-English-speaking audio communities are at the same level? I only wish he had left the speakers closed and immediately published his findings and analysis.

Second, the thread got way out of control early on. The moderators have not been on the job. The thread should have been closed to further comment long ago. Now that there are so many pages of grievance, accusation and argument, the thread should be deleted. Is this the beginning of the end of ASR?
 

Doodski

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First post from a long-time lurker. Amir's reviews are so very, very competent in a field marked for decades by ignorance and irreproducibility, and many of the members obviously know what they are talking about.

I'm reading this thread because I have Sointuvas on order. Two things stand out. First, the astonishing skill and persistence of Mr. Nuyes. I can only wonder what other non-English-speaking audio communities are at the same level? I only wish he had left the speakers closed and immediately published his findings and analysis.

Second, the thread got way out of control early on. The moderators have not been on the job. The thread should have been closed to further comment long ago. Now that there are so many pages of grievance, accusation and argument, the thread should be deleted. Is this the beginning of the end of ASR?
That reads as pretty doomy and gloomy. ASR has had disruptions before and they never killed ASR. This is just another small upset event.
 

beren777

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First post from a long-time lurker. Amir's reviews are so very, very competent in a field marked for decades by ignorance and irreproducibility, and many of the members obviously know what they are talking about.

I'm reading this thread because I have Sointuvas on order. Two things stand out. First, the astonishing skill and persistence of Mr. Nuyes. I can only wonder what other non-English-speaking audio communities are at the same level? I only wish he had left the speakers closed and immediately published his findings and analysis.

Second, the thread got way out of control early on. The moderators have not been on the job. The thread should have been closed to further comment long ago. Now that there are so many pages of grievance, accusation and argument, the thread should be deleted. Is this the beginning of the end of ASR?

My main concern, if I were in the market for Sointuvas, would be warranty support. If the product needs to be serviced and you have to send it half a world away (assuming you're in the US/Canada), are you going to be content with the amount of time involved? If you're in Aussieland, it seems like a much easier purchase to make. I've almost made purchases several times from March Audio but the geographical distance and lack of a local distributor was enough for me to hold off.
 

amirm

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I understand that he puts this stuff on his youtube videos, and yes he may be trying to make a profit, although I would remember that you used to post comments at the end of your reviews about problems with your house, etc. that a donation would help ameliorate the cost of reviews, and I certainly appreciate that these reviews cost time and money, both precious commodities. I don't know what Erin's economics are but knowing how much it costs to ship speakers I doubt he's making any significant amount of money and is more likely barely defraying his costs, and I'm sure you also welcome contributions that help you cover the cost of running this site and creating these reviews. I really don't see it as anything more than that.
I don't go on Erin's site and put links back to here for traffic and money. I have no issues with Erin making money however he wants on his sites and channels. I simply ask that he not use us as source of traffic for such money gathering. This is industry standard. No forum owner would allow him to remotely post and repeatedly so to his site. Heck they would even ban links to his site altogether.
If he kept all references to patreon, paypal, his video comments, etc, out of any review content he cross-posted on here, and if none of his reviews were the result of manufacturers or dealers compensating him for reviews, would you still ban him?
Your statement is not specific enough. A link to his site where it is full of promotions is not acceptable. Ditto to his videos. If you are saying he will get out of all monetization, then yes, we would welcome him back. Not saying that he should but just answering your question.
 

amirm

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Second, the thread got way out of control early on. The moderators have not been on the job. The thread should have been closed to further comment long ago. Now that there are so many pages of grievance, accusation and argument, the thread should be deleted. Is this the beginning of the end of ASR?
Moderators were on the job. I made the decision for the thread to be here and open due to extreme probative value of OP's measurements and diagnostic efforts. Some people are focusing on side issues so your complaints should be directed at them.

Yes, I realize this is not the perfect example of what we want to be but it is nature of these social societies. If we closed and deleted threads left and right, we would get accused of other things. So I suggest if you are not interested in this aspect of the thread that you don't extend that very thing. Send us a message in private by reporting the thread.
 

BDWoody

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First post from a long-time lurker.

Welcome!


Second, the thread got way out of control early on. The moderators have not been on the job. The thread should have been closed to further comment long ago.

We tend to do things differently 'round these parts. This herd of cats doesn't do well when they feel their caterwauling isn't being validated, so we tend to put up with a lot. The wisdom of that approach is debatable, but it's ours and we own it.

Editing or deleting posts (or members) just isn't part of what we want to be doing. It can get messy, but that's ok...life can get a bit messy. There are real stakes for real people, and I'd rather err on the side of letting people have their say than cut them off.

Some could learn better when their point has been made, but jumping in risks accusations of suppression, so...it's a game of mitigation not winning.

Is this the beginning of the end of ASR?

Stick around and find out! My bet is no.
 

groovybassist

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My main concern, if I were in the market for Sointuvas, would be warranty support. If the product needs to be serviced and you have to send it half a world away (assuming you're in the US/Canada), are you going to be content with the amount of time involved? If you're in Aussieland, it seems like a much easier purchase to make. I've almost made purchases several times from March Audio but the geographical distance and lack of a local distributor was enough for me to hold off.
Warranty support is something that’s becoming more top of mind to me as time goes on. I really dislike the throwaway quality of a lot of new gear coming out, which is why I’m willing to spend a bit more to support manufacturers who focus on quality engineering and product build. I’m in the US and my system is moving toward all North American brands, so warranty support is much simpler/quicker if needed.
 

Doodski

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Warranty support is something that’s becoming more top of mind to me as time goes on. I really dislike the throwaway quality of a lot of new gear coming out, which is why I’m willing to spend a bit more to support manufacturers who focus on quality engineering and product build. I’m in the US and my system is moving toward all North American brands, so warranty support is much simpler/quicker if needed.
Moi aussie. I am thinking of upgrading my HD 598SR headphones and that will necessitate a new amp and DAC or an AIO. I am looking to the USA for product. I sent a warranty RMA 280mm PC water cooler to California via post and it cost me ~$20. I recently sent headphones and that cost me $42 via Fedex ground. So basically the rates are the same as if I sent stuff across Canada. Thankfully retailers and etailers in the USA are supporting Canadian purchases now so we have access to all the stuff retailers here won't supply. There was a time not long ago when USA suppliers stated no Canadian sales. Times have changed.
 

Jukebox

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What is really sad, or a bit ridiculous depending on how you look at it, is the simmering hostility that seems to exist between what I consider the three major sources of objective audio hardware reviews...
Strange and sad indeed. Seems like it's something in audio in general that just needs to create conflict.
Feels like that time in Avengers when Captain America fought Iron Man.

Anyway, they both provide best in class data so I am just going to follow them separately from now on.
 

cavedriver

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I don't go on Erin's site and put links back to here for traffic and money. I have no issues with Erin making money however he wants on his sites and channels. I simply ask that he not use us as source of traffic for such money gathering. This is industry standard. No forum owner would allow him to remotely post and repeatedly so to his site. Heck they would even ban links to his site altogether.

Your statement is not specific enough. A link to his site where it is full of promotions is not acceptable. Ditto to his videos. If you are saying he will get out of all monetization, then yes, we would welcome him back. Not saying that he should but just answering your question.
Ok, I understand, but you do accept contributions from members? They get a little banner saying, "contributor", yes? How do we tell those contributions are just for the cost of the site? I mean of course they are, I'm not trying to be smart, it's just that Erin hasn't said he's trying to make a living (or even a profit) from this, and from what I can tell he has some kind of engineering day job and his number of views are so low I doubt his collective income is very significant. So are you saying that any effort to collect compensation from his channel, no matter how effective, is not ok if people that visit this site can visit his site through a link and see him asking for money, but your acceptance of (even request for, on occasion) donations, is not the same and therefore ok? Wouldn't it be equal if he simply ran a post on youtube insisting on what his day job is and how there is no way his youtube channel derives any significant value for him compared to how much he makes from his main business? I understand you run a company called Madrona Digital. I believe that it does high-end technology installs that include relatively little profit from sale of the gear reviewed on this site. I believe that the donations to this site are small enough that they do not influence your opinions or create a revenue stream large enough to bias your content or distract from the content on the site. I think what we the readers greatly appreciate the work that goes into this site. What we are asking is that you extend the same trust to other readers that are trying to do the same thing as you but may be less subtle in their request for funds and who may not be able to afford $200k in instrumentation right out of the gates. If Erin gets to millions of views like tech ingredients, then ok, he's hit viral land and you can ban him and I won't care. If Erin is rude or disingenuous or shows bias, then ok, again, I understand the ban.
 

Jimbob54

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I understand you run a company called Madrona Digital. I believe that it does high-end technology installs that include relatively little profit from sale of the gear reviewed on this site.
Could you explain the second sentence please. Are you saying Madrona sells the gear received from manufacturers/ distributors that arent required to be returned/ sent on for further review?

As for the rest of it- Amir is of course at liberty to solicit members and visitors here for funding- its his site. Not sure what relevance what Amir does on HIS own site is relevant to what Erin or other contributors post or link on Amir's site.
 
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