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The quest for my hyper speaker - Very Large room dilemma

test1223

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Regarding a stereo triangle and heavy toe in that you only count the first cross sidewall reflection, there are only a few possible configurations which bring a decent delay. I posted these earlier in the following thread https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...nt-wide-vs-narrow-directivity-and-more.15171/

Regarding the heavy toe in I calculated the room width which is needed to get a delay of the reflection from the opposite wall (assuming an stereo triangle)
Listening distance [m]Room width (toe in 20ms delay) [m]Room width (heavy toe in 22.5ms delay) [m]Room width (heavy toe in 25ms delay) [m]
16.147.007.87
25.356.237.09
34.585.416.28
4-4.575.45
As you can see you get values which actually a lot of living or listening rooms provide. It is also interesting that due to the subtraction of the listening distance (l r speaker distance) in the formula you need a smaller room with higher listening distance.

Here without heavy toe in so that the first sidewall reflection of the speaker near the wall counts:
To get an estimate of the room size I calculated the room width. I assume a standard stereo triangle (equal triangle, listening distance = width between L and R speaker).
Listening distance [m]Room width (20ms delay) [m]Room width (22.5ms delay) [m]Room width (25ms delay) [m]
18.149.009.87
29.3510.2211.09
310.5311.4012.38
411.6812.5713.45

You can see that the room has to be bigger for this.

If you want to calculate it by yourself you can solve the following formula:
w=2*b+a
b=-a/(2*2^0.5)+(a^2/8+0.5*c*d*a+0.25*c^2*d^2)^0.5
Where w is the room width [m], b is the distance from the speaker to the nearest side wall [m], a is the listening distance aka length of the stereo triangle [m], c the speed of sound [m/s] and d the delay (s).
 

amadeuswus

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I haven't read the whole thread, but have the (discontinued) Dali Megalines made an appearance? It comes as stacked modules so in theory the sky is the limit.... Looks domestically acceptable for a large speaker.


images


 

robwpdx

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The ear does do compression as measured by the Fletcher-Munson Curves.
 
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Bjorn

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The term "dynamic speaker" is meaningless in engineering and acoustic terms. It is often used subjectively describing horn speakers but I cannot comment on subjectively in a communication. The only thing that effects a speaker's dynamics is the compression at high power input.

Your room is large but I don't think you will be seated further away than 5m from each speaker nor will listen louder than 100dBSPL at the listening position. Salon2 is rated by Revel to have a sensitivity of 86.4dBSPL with 2.83V @ 1m (2 π anechoic). This means in order for two of them producing 100dBSPL @ 5m, each speaker needs 34V, which translates to 144W in 8 Ohm, not a huge amount of power but a huge amount of SPL.

Do you expect a 4-way speaker with an equivalent woofer size of 14" will have audible compression issues at that power?
More like 265W to reach 100 dB with two speakers placed away from walls. To reach peaks of 115 dB, the Revel speakers would need more than 8000W. Obviously they can't handle that.

Unless drivers are horn loaded or multiples are used, compression will normally occur within normal listening levels. With most speakers compression happens well below 100 dB and commonly already at 85-90 dB. Traditional speakers loose 6 dB per meter, so this is a real deal unless one listens at very low levels or very close to the speakers. I believe IMD/multitone distortion is another issue though and one reason why either many woofers or horn loaded ones sound so much effortless.
 

sarumbear

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The Revel speakers would need more than 8000W. Obviously they can't handle that.
I agree but are we sure that the OP realises what is 115dBSPL is?
 

fpitas

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NOISE-LEVEL-DECIBEL-CHART.png
 

Bjorn

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I agree but are we sure that the OP realises what is 115dBSPL is?
I believe he's talking about maximum short peaks. If he is listening an average level of 95 dB sometimes (still very loud), certain passages can reach 115 dB. I've vistied people who cranked up the average level to about 100-105 dB and they claimed they listened that loud occasionally (but not for long).
 

audiofooled

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There is probably a point at which the distance between speakers adversely affects dynamics, but I don't know what it would be. I'm aware of the thinking behind clustering subs in the center for a sound reinforcement system outdoors or in a large venue, but I'm not under the impression that such is desirable in a home listening room, even an exceptionally large one. That being said, I welcome correction from anyone who knows more about this than I do.

Sorry for reposting this video, but Geddes shows some simulation of speaker placement and toe in with regards to directivity, starting from 28:31 to 32:48.


About dynamics, I'm not sure if they are affected that much, but in my experience, having speakers too far apart, or less than ideal toe in affects mostly mid bass. Even more so than listening distance. But this is only subjective and of course dependent on the speaker design and off axis behavior. The reason I posted the previous video of those large horn speakers is to compare how less far apart they are with regards to the distance they cover.

Admittedly I have no data to support this but it has been my impression that sometimes equilateral triangle in speaker positioning is less than optimal.
 

GXAlan

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I believe he's talking about maximum short peaks. If he is listening an average level of 95 dB sometimes (still very loud), certain passages can reach 115 dB. I've vistied people who cranked up the average level to about 100-105 dB and they claimed they listened that loud occasionally (but not for long).

For THX, the below 80 Hz content is allowed to hit 115 dB peaks and it’s not uncomfortable. For a full range speaker, wanting 115 dB peaks for *low frequencies* is not crazy.

Personally I think as an audiophile, we need to protect our ears. Then distance becomes the big driver for having high spl’s.
 

onion

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How about Genelec 8361a + W371a? Or is that a bit underpowered for the space?
 

RayDunzl

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May I ask if you have measured 115dBSPL at your listening position?

I have, briefly, attempting to reproduce a "calibrated" drum solo.

Sounded good for the few seconds it played.

Registered 116.9dB peak with a UMIK-1 and REW at the 10 foot listening position.

It also sounded like someone was taking a baseball bat to the speakers.

I didn't repeat the test.

My normal "loud" has about 105dB peaks, which is not an uncomfortable level for a few dynamic tunes.
 

sarumbear

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For THX, the below 80 Hz content is allowed to hit 115 dB peaks and it’s not uncomfortable. For a full range speaker, wanting 115 dB peaks for *low frequencies* is not crazy.

Personally I think as an audiophile, we need to protect our ears. Then distance becomes the big driver for having high spl’s.
How does distance relates to how loud it is at your ears?
 

fpitas

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sarumbear

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Let’s look at this 115dB peak problem from an excursion limit angle. Here is the calc.

A 1" dome tweeter will require 3mm peak to peak excursion at 2000Hz the usual crossover frequency. That is around 3x the average driver. Unless you cut off the tweeter at 6000Hz, there’s no hope for it to produce 115dBSPL peaks.

In other words 115dBSPL is not within the capacity of non-horn speakers.
 

gnarly

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Your room is large but I don't think you will be seated further away than 5m from each speaker nor will listen louder than 100dBSPL at the listening position. Salon2 is rated by Revel to have a sensitivity of 86.4dBSPL with 2.83V @ 1m (2 π anechoic). This means in order for two of them producing 100dBSPL @ 5m, each speaker needs 34V, which translates to 144W in 8 Ohm, not a huge amount of power but a huge amount of SPL.
There's few discrepancies in your 100dBSPL calculation that all together add up significantly, imo.

First is @aliqaz has said he listens at 20ft or 6.1m, not 5m. Second is the Salon2's nominal impedance is 6 ohm, not 8 ohm.
Third is I see you attributed two speakers to provide a full +6dB summation....which is very unrealistic ime. +3dB is commonly used for this.

So all those together add to needing about 58V and 570 W per speaker, not 34V and 144W.

.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

But I think the far bigger issue, is that this type of calculation is for AVERAGE SPL, and AVERAGE POWER.

In #209, Duke linked an in-room SPL calculator http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html#anchor_13193
It makes the same type calculation.

Here's a screen shot of that calculator using the Salon2 with the numbers i posted above.
(Note stated 86.4 sensitivity has to be adjusted down by -1.2dB, because Revel used 2.83V which is 1.33W, not 1W, into it's nominal 6 ohms.)

1683209616420.png


It is a calculator for finding maximum average SPL at the listening position, using the speaker's sensitivity , amplifier wattage, and distance.
It has no consideration of headroom needed for producing uncompressed peak signal.

If the amplifier wattage includes it's entire headroom available (which is a spec that's very hard to find on almost any amp because it varies by time duration).
the calculator would give peak maximum SPL...the headroom needed for transients above average SPL.
Generally, I've found it's not safe to assume there is more that +3dB amp headroom above rated wattage. Very good amps may have +6dB. Extraordinarily excellent ones perhaps higher.

How much headroom is needed?
I saw Duke in same post say he likes +8-10dB (Personally, I'm a clean-headroom junkie, and like +18dB..we will ignore me :))

Let's just go with a +9 dB needed.....which equates to 8x the 570W power already in the average calculator. (2^3rd ...a doubling for each 3dB)
Yikes ! 4560W for clean headroom.
Ok, so we're clearly in fantasy land....

Let's go the other way, lets try to input the max unclipped amp wattage we can reason out for a 570W amp (not for from the 600W @aliqaz mentioned used for the current Revels)
We could just divide the 570W by 8 to give room for peaks, which would give about 71W; but lets be generous to the amp and say it has +3dB honest headroom.
So, only need to dived by 4 for 142 W,
revel salon2 maz peak spl calc.JPG


Now we have 94dB at listening position....but this is transient peak SPL,
and we need to subtract the +9dB it has over average SPL.

To get to a max average 85dB at LP, unclippled by amp.



Ok, take all this with a grain of salt...it doesn't account for room contributions, it's a spitball guess about amp headroom, and what sensitivity is across the spectrum.
And who knows if all the driver sections are able to maintain linearity, at the now implied 1m 98 dB average, and 107 dB peak.
My guess is they all can, other than the three 8" subs petering out at very low freq,
Not bad at all.

Not what I'd call good though. Especially given only +9 dB was used for transients.
If you want to allow for more clean headroom, just subtract that number from whatever the in-room SPL calculater gives (using rated amp wattage) to get maximum average SPL at LP.

Hope this was of some help to any trying to wrap their head around,what does it really take to turn up the volume without hearing strain.
 
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sarumbear

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That or direct radiators used in significant numbers... but haven't quite a few of us been saying that since the first page of posts? Not sure why this is still a question.
Was that a question? I was simply supporting what was said.
 
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