The quest for my hyper speaker - Very Large room dilemma

[Sokel]

In order to reach these levels without high distortion and compression, plus have a speaker that measures well off-axis and on-axis I'm not sure there's anything else than a large horn speaker and preferably with a separate subwoofer/bass solution. As I've said ealier though, I'm biased here.

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I honestly don't know what I would have purchased myself if I was going to buy a horn speaker off-shelf. I don't see any that tick all the important features to me. Perhaps the Klipsch Jubilee or Danley Hyperion would have been the closest but I'm well aware of their drawbacks. I have owned the Klipsch K-402 horn (top horn on the Jubilee) and have both measured and listened to it extensively. We used it as a reference when designing our horn.

What commercial horn speaker combines active crossover with time alignment between drivers, have low diffraction, great horizontal and vertical polars, maintains directivity in both planes at least down to 500-600 Hz, doesn't overly beam (become very narrow as frequency goes up), use high quality drivers (like beryllium compression driver), avoid the floor bounce, and have horn loaded midbass for higher SPL and lower distortion? To my knowledge it doesn't exist and it's one of the reasons why many horn enthusiasts go with DIY.

You could of course reach those levels with a traditional line array as well. However, in a traditional line array the drivers don't sum well, leading to interference between drivers and what I would describe as non coherent sound (at least to my ears). A CBT speaker resolves this with shading and curving, but wouldn't reach the levels in the highs unless you go custom. That being said, we don't need as much SPL in the high since music material have much less level here. With a traditional CBT speaker, the horizontal dispersion is very wide (180°) which is similar to Revel and most speaker designs.

The only commercial set-up I have experienced in a big space (more than 200m²) that is pure fun consists of 2-meter high horns.
They are not lookers but is pure joy,thunderous,delicate,etc.
There are no measurements around but I believe they are typical of the kind.
All the other big space set-ups I know are installed by pros.

 

[Axo1989]

Actually come to think of it I had considered these before. They have very good on access frequency response measurements. And they have the unique feature of wide and narrow directivity modes that you can activate with the touch of a button. Something that I have never heard of in any other speaker. So overall pretty good.

I'd forgotten the B&O 90. Perhaps better value than my more extravagant suggestions, and as you say, those features may well suit different listening scenarios in your space.

 

[FrankW]

I hope you aware that Revel has collapsing horizontal directivity (not constant), vertical lobing and superposition between drivers, floor bounce, no time alignment between drivers, cabinet diffraction issues, and higher modulation distortion compared to what achievable. If such a speaker is A+, I wonder that grade we should give better designs!

Wow, that must sound really bad. Can you link the designs (yours?) that have beaten the Revel Salon2 in a controlled blind listening test, preferably with positions constant and reasonably quick switching time. Thanks.

 

[Adi777]

In fact, isn't it better to calculate the best acoustic seating for the listener first? I don't have experience, just asking.

 

[FrankW]

Obviously price is never no object. But even if it were I would need a lot of data which is not available for these before even considering pulling the trigger

What is your budget?

 

[dedobot]

That definitely is easier said than done. I live in Vancouver, British Columbia, most high-end installers typically just like to push among the small suite of products and brands that they sell. And these are super high-end retailers. Most have little to no idea about the latest advances in DSP and acoustics, and Voodoo runs amok. When I was setting up my whole house for audio video, I got frankly unbelievable quotes for mediocre products and mediocre implementations. I ended up partnering with a flexible installer who followed my instructions (which was fun as I am a hobbyist) and we were able to create a state-of-the-art sound and audio video solution for the whole house.

Understand. I reasoned from the EU citizen's POV.

So, just from shelf , why not MEG me-801k+ 14k sub per channel ,with external DSP/correction .
MEGs coupled with an gorgeous stands can rival everything audio with esthetics.

 

[Adi777]

14k sub

Why their subwoofers don't "kicks" deeper?

 

[dedobot]

Why their subwoofers don't "kicks" deeper?

Have no idea, may be the cardioid thing . But it's looks good and Meg have good reputation . I see them more like additional woofers than a traditional subwoofers - p.s. what is exactly our OP wants, I think.

 

[sarumbear]

Are you sure about that excursion requirement? Those subs have 2kW of amplification and there are 4 of them in the system. A Dayton RSS460HO-4 in a 150L enclosure with 2000W of amplification would do 100dBSPL/1m at 10Hz if it had the xMax (36mm) of those drivers.

The calculator is here. Solve for Xmax and enter 4x 18" and see the Xmax requirement for 120Hz at 8Hz. I see 133mm, which is 266 peak to peak (10 inches!).

Piston Excursion calculator

www.baudline.com

There is no relation to the power input, nor enclosure volume to the piston volume limit of a driver i.e. max SPL it can generate.

 

[dedobot]

The calculator is here. Solve for Xmax and enter 4x 18" and see the Xmax requirement for 120Hz at 8Hz. I see 133mm, which is 266 peak to peak (10 inches!).

Piston Excursion calculator

www.baudline.com

There is no relation to the power input, nor enclosure volume to the piston volume limit of a driver i.e. max SPL it can generate.

Did you guys saw a OP'place, at the pg#3 ,bottom?
He have no windows but a fkng glass walls. With exceptional view. Glass walls. Yours subs will bring them down

 

[fredoamigo]

So the OP wants fill that large beautiful space with great sound. Ok ! The obvious answer is well established professional sound installation company + skilled interior designer. Throwing some giant ,mega expensive , good looking floorstanders with a hope they will sounds good in the place is not a serious approach.

What do you mean by a well established professional sound installation company + a competent interior designer?
As much as it is not very difficult to find for home theater and multichannel, but for a stereo system in a very large room I do not think it is very easy to find without making a casting error. What would be the selection criteria ? Would you be sure that the "professional" adopts the right philosophy? Do you have examples of installations of this type (in a very large living room) that was done by a professional?
Personally, I would rather pay for my own mistake than that of others, especially since the OP is not a "Newbie" it seems.

 

[mcdn]

The calculator is here. Solve for Xmax and enter 4x 18" and see the Xmax requirement for 120Hz at 8Hz. I see 133mm, which is 266 peak to peak (10 inches!).

Piston Excursion calculator

www.baudline.com

There is no relation to the power input, nor enclosure volume to the piston volume limit of a driver i.e. max SPL it can generate.

would you take a moment to respond to what I wrote instead of something else please? The calculator you link gives the same result as I discussed, i.e. 100dB free field for 36mm xMax for an 18 inch driver. I then give various reasons why four of those in a room can very easily generate 120dbSPL, and also reasoning for why even just one might be able to.

 

[dedobot]

What do you mean by a well established professional sound installation company + a competent interior designer?
As much as it is not very difficult to find for home theater and multichannel, but for a stereo system in a very large room I do not think it is very easy to find without making a casting error. What would be the selection criteria ? Would you be sure that the "professional" adopts the right philosophy? Do you have examples of installations of this type (in a very large living room) that was done by a professional?
Personally, I would rather pay for my own mistake than that of others, especially since the OP is not a "Newbie" it seems.

1. It's out of question because of the OP stated hi is in remote area w/o of access to complicated audio services.
Second , accordingly the requirements, the "room" is extremely difficult about the acoustic .
3th . My personal experience is not a point.

 

[fredoamigo]

Second , accordingly the requirements, the "room" is extremely difficult about the acoustic

It is for this reason and also for the desired listening distance in a room that will have to remain pleasant to the eye and to live in that the quest for an established professional is not a very easy thing. if it was for a work environment (home studio) it would be much simpler.

 

[sarumbear]

would you take a moment to respond to what I wrote instead of something else please? The calculator you link gives the same result as I discussed, i.e. 100dB free field for 36mm xMax for an 18 inch driver. I then give various reasons why four of those in a room can very easily generate 120dbSPL, and also reasoning for why even just one might be able to.

Your original post is below. I was replying to those numbers. In order to achieve what you said you need 10" peak to peak excursion from 4x 18" drivers. As the wavelength of 8Hz is 42m, no domestic size room will be have much (if any) room gain either.

Audioholics recently gave a good review to these: https://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/rtj-410-rtj18sub

the picture is confusing at first as there’s another set of speakers in the room. The RTJ-410 units are sandwiched between the rtj18 subs above and below them.

they measured an in-room F3 below 8Hz, and over 120dB of output capability

 

[aliqaz]

1. It's out of question because of the OP stated hi is in remote area w/o of access to complicated audio services.
Second , accordingly the requirements, the "room" is extremely difficult about the acoustic .
3th . My personal experience is not a point

You may not know where Vancouver, British Columbia is (where I live) as I stated on my post but it is the opposite of a remote area without complicated audio services. It's a major city with every kind of complicated audio service you can imagine. The room in question is in my chalet in the mountains of Whistler, BC (1.5 hours from.vancouver) which again is the opposite of remote as we have multiple installers who do large complicated houses. So again the problem is not finding the people to do this, there are plenty of them, is whether they follow professional objective philosophy and are up to date on the latest developments and don't just shove a bunch of marked up stuff on to me as the middlemen.

 

[aliqaz]

It is for this reason and also for the desired listening distance in a room that will have to remain pleasant to the eye and to live in that the quest for an established professional is not a very easy thing. if it was for a work environment (home studio) it would be much simpler.

I've gotten numerous private and public messages from audio professionals who have reached out, either to work on this interesting problem. What I understand is that the room is not inherently bad acoustically, in fact large rooms have numerous acoustic advantages as well. It's just very difficult to fill with bass because it's so big, and I sit too far away so I require really high spl's without distortion or compression.

 

[Deleted member 58722]

Lol I could settle on those, too. If I could cram them in my music room, I might.

But why they so butt ugly!

 

[dedobot]

It is for this reason and also for the desired listening distance in a room that will have to remain pleasant to the eye and to live in that the quest for an established professional is not a very easy thing. if it was for a work environment (home studio) it would be much simpler.

Exactly. The task' is difficult. OP is here to harvest solutions , what I will have do at his place.
That's why I stand behind mine latest suggestion - cardiod MEGs + digital domain .

 

[fpitas]

But why they so butt ugly!

I can see I won't have to fight you for them.