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The Problem With Dolby Atmos

TBH I was picking up more references by goat to his personal likes and dislikes, ie preferences, than...

...that he actually meant realism. Which moves the argument from the subjective to the objective. And since he gave your post a 'like', you might be right.

However, calling it realism is an even bigger error, and I will explain.

The perfect segue into my continuation point, thank you.

When musicians perform in public, they are very strictly constrained by the situation. There are relatively few of them, and they are the object of desire and attention for a large number of people in an audience, sometimes an extremely numerous audience. There is little alternative than to plant the musicians in a spot, often a safe spot, but also a spot whereby they can communicate to one another when playing, and spread the audience out from that point. In a hall, the audience is spread in a long block fronting the stage where the musicians play. In an arena, the audience, being even more numerous, needs to be spread in a gigantic circle around the musicians assembled on a relatively tiny stage, and the perceived angle of the musical source can actually approach a point source. To call this state of affairs realism strikes me as overreach.

Getting used to this necessary but strict constraint is a matter of conditioning. Nothing more. It is simply another excellent example of the conditioning that I have been describing, unrelated to objective realism or naturalness. There is as much logic to the realism argument as to the argument that automatic car transmissions are more realistic and natural than manual car transmissions, because we only have two feet. In fact, the number of feet argument has more merit to it than the constrained music presentation angle argument.

However, when the audience is numbered one, or a small handful, the musicians and the sound engineers getting the music to this audience are not constrained by the mass audience constraints (and they are nothing more than constraints). Creative opportunities open up for new modes of musical presentation, and they are every bit as realistic or natural as the deeply constrained modes limited by the situation of a mass audience. (Our hearing organism is highly developed to detect, interpret, appreciate and react with emotion, to sounds originating from every direction. It could be argued less realistic and less natural to constrain it.) The musicians, and the sound engineers, have never in the past had this opportunity to present their music for an audience of one with a full three-dimensional palette. Rather than being unrealistic or unnatural, it is actually something new, but just as realistic and natural as any other, but with greater opportunities for greater creativity. And as I highlighted in my earlier post, conditioning is the enemy of the flourishing of this new mode, and is also the enemy of the audience itself benefiting from the new creativity and new modes of expression on offer.

The key point that I've been trying to make, and to which some seem to be unnecessarily resistant, is that conditioning is not the same as innate preference. And understanding this difference is actually important. When one doesn't understand it, one thinks that one has some innate locked preference that one doesn't actually have (one might even attempt to post-rationalise the conditioning as 'realism'), and doesn't realise that unlocking it is a genuine opportunity for oneself to move into new modes of experience with new rewards. And that as long as one remains locked in by the conditioning, one is in essence deprived, and unnecessarily so. I'm trying to raise awareness here.

cheers
I think we may have to agree to disagree here. This IS merely your opinion vs mine, and I believe that you are truly, truly overthinking this.

Even at smaller gigs, in tiny venues, when the audience is not wrapped around the musicians, I have never seen placement of the musicians which would come to close challenging Goat's original point.

It is not conditioning and, my resistance to your point is completely justified as it makes no sense whatsoever, at least in the context of this conversation. I can see how it could apply elsewhere, but not here.

His personal preference is completely and utterly just that, nothing more, not conditioning, nothing less. This is very, very straightforward indeed.

I don't think there is any need for further keyboard warrioring here (both of us). I'd prefer to get back to the original conversation.
 
I think we may have to agree to disagree here. This IS merely your opinion vs mine, and I believe that you are truly, truly overthinking this.

Even at smaller gigs, in tiny venues, when the audience is not wrapped around the musicians, I have never seen placement of the musicians which would come to close challenging Goat's original point.

It is not conditioning and, my resistance to your point is completely justified as it makes no sense whatsoever, at least in the context of this conversation. I can see how it could apply elsewhere, but not here.

His personal preference is completely and utterly just that, nothing more, not conditioning, nothing less. This is very, very straightforward indeed.

I don't think there is any need for further keyboard warrioring here (both of us). I'd prefer to get back to the original conversation.

You are right about my view on this, that it all just has to do with my personal preference and nothing else.
I somewhat hesitate to write the following, as I suspect that Newman will carve out things that he think will suit his narrative… :)

I simply prefer Atmos mixes where the goal has mostly been aimed at recreating something closer to what is normally heard at a live music event, and I would have found it equally distracting in a live event if one of the musicians decided to isolate himself, standing in one of the back corners of the venue playing his acoustic guitar, while the rest of the band members are up on the front stage performing together as a band.

I’m not strictly bound to full realism, and I’m definitely open to some creative choices when it comes to mixing a rock song, such as in using a large portion of the front stage for the drums even though that’s hardly realistic. But if the mixing engineer makes the choice of panning a tom drum to one of the surround channels while the rest of the drum set is at the front stage, I will find that rather distracting as that tom drum will just sound totally detached from the rest of the drums.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread about the Atmos mix of the Jimi Hendrix album, I don’t find it distracting at all that the surround channels are used in a creative way for the direct recorded sounds of the guitar sweeping around me at the listening position, and the surround channels are being used in an organic-sounding non-static fashion that doesn’t leave out a single instrument sounding isolated, which to me leads to a distraction from the overall music.

All this is just part of my personal preferences of what I see as tasteful vs distasteful ways of doing mixing an Atmos song. Nothing more, nothing less. :)
 
You are right about my view on this, that it all just has to do with my personal preference and nothing else.
I somewhat hesitate to write the following, as I suspect that Newman will carve out things that he think will suit his narrative… :)

I simply prefer Atmos mixes where the goal has mostly been aimed at recreating something closer to what is normally heard at a live music event, and I would have found it equally distracting in a live event if one of the musicians decided to isolate himself, standing in one of the back corners of the venue playing his acoustic guitar, while the rest of the band members are up on the front stage performing together as a band.

I’m not strictly bound to full realism, and I’m definitely open to some creative choices when it comes to mixing a rock song, such as in using a large portion of the front stage for the drums even though that’s hardly realistic. But if the mixing engineer makes the choice of panning a tom drum to one of the surround channels while the rest of the drum set is at the front stage, I will find that rather distracting as that tom drum will just sound totally detached from the rest of the drums.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread about the Atmos mix of the Jimi Hendrix album, I don’t find it distracting at all that the surround channels are used in a creative way for the direct recorded sounds of the guitar sweeping around me at the listening position, and the surround channels are being used in an organic-sounding non-static fashion that doesn’t leave out a single instrument sounding isolated, which to me leads to a distraction from the overall music.

All this is just part of my personal preferences of what I see as tasteful vs distasteful ways of doing mixing an Atmos song. Nothing more, nothing less. :)
Speaking of preferences . . . AIX Records had a release in 2001 Nitty Gritty Surround. This is a recording of a group of very fine folk musicians made at the fabulous Fox Theater without any audience. The musicians were grouped roughly in a circle and played without the use of stage monitors, earphones, etc. There are two 5.1 mixes, audience and stage, which place you exactly as described, in the audience or on the stage with the musicians. It is a dual disc. One side is a DVD Video of the performance with both mixes selectable (and some annotations about the recording) with Dolby (audience) and dts (stage) audio. Both are satisfactory. The other side is 96/24 DVD Audio of the stage mix, which is very nice if you have a compatible player. Available on the secondary market for $10-$20 on eBay in the US.

The "30th Anniversary" release of Talking Heads Stop Making Sense (on Palm Pictures, not the current release on Warner) also offers two soundtracks, the 5.1 Theatrical (which is an audience perspective) and what they call a studio mix, which is similar to a put you in the middle of the band perspective. The current release is Atmos and similar to the theatrical mix. Unfortunately someone couldn't resist using autotune to fix a couple of "errors" in the performance, so it is corrupted and doesn't reflect the director's final cut (the late Jonathan Demme.) I believe the older release is still available generally.

Of course, listener personal preference is less relevant where the musicians have made the choice (e.g. Mark Knopfler, Max Cooper), but these two releases provide an interesting way to compare the two approaches. The producer of Nitty Gritty Surround intended it as a way to consider the different approaches.
 
If people enjoy that kind of "creativity" then that's fine.
I think you'll find, at least in the popular music genre of surround sound mastering, that creativity of mixing styles is what's leads the listeners desires.
And that has been true going all the way back the 1970s Quad releases.

It is remarkable that Eddie Kramer was able to take analog tapes made in 1967 and provide us with such a spectacular remix/remastering
An amazing final result, sold gold for Hendrix fans.

I simply prefer Atmos mixes where the goal has mostly been aimed at recreating something closer to what is normally heard at a live music event, and I would have found it equally distracting in a live event if one of the musicians decided to isolate himself, standing in one of the back corners of the venue playing his acoustic guitar, while the rest of the band members are up on the front stage performing together as a band.
I fully appreciate your preferences here but would simply again mention if that's what you like why bother buying any surround encoded recordings? A stereo mix into one of many up-samplers would get you what you like. There is very little to be gained from having more than 2 discrete channels if your not going to mix anything into them besides ambiance and crowd noise?
Just wondering, did you put together a surround rig mainly for movies/home theater use?
 
extensive use of phase shifters and such in those old mixes.

Making discrete 5.1 or Atmos mixes of them is almost overkill ;)
You can compare Madonna immaculate collection done in QSound (early analog phase shifting magic) and the more recent 5.1 release. I almost like the 2ch better.
 
I fully appreciate your preferences here but would simply again mention if that's what you like why bother buying any surround encoded recordings? A stereo mix into one of many up-samplers would get you what you like.

And I already told you that I have never heard a fully convincing-sounding upmixer, and I find the result to be either a hit or a miss. 2-channel audio tracks are not created equally from one track to another, so a pre-set upmixing setting may work for one track, but can screw up the next.

There is very little to be gained from having more than 2 discrete channels if your not going to mix anything into them besides ambiance and crowd noise?

I have not said that the surround channels should only handle ambiance and crowd noise. I have explained to you that the front stage in an Atmos mix can reach to 90 degrees to each side of the listening position, and to be able to do that, the surround channels and the front channels must both be used to position phantom sounds on the outside of each of the front speakers.
I hope you understand how a phantom sound is created.

Just wondering, did you put together a surround rig mainly for movies/home theater use?

That is correct. The main reason I have a surround system is for watching movie. There are no Atmos mixes to be found in the noise rock genre, which I usually listen to, so I only listen to Atmos music sporadically, from time to time.
 
Sal1950 said:
[to goat76] So now you want to change the rules of the game?
First you talked about a single instrument in the rear and a basic stereo front stage.
Now you talk about a mix that pans part of the drum kit and a synth into the surrounds, and I don't know what else, there's more I'm sure.
Perhaps he was using extreme generalizations to describe a specific example! :cool: :cool: :cool:
The Birds of Fire drum placement in its 1970s quad mix is an example of..."a single instrument in the rear" (ouch)

That is to say: the drum kit (a 'single instrument') is always panned 'in the rear' (except for a few seconds,where it's given a circular pan.). All the other instruments are set in a basic stereo front stage

So I don't know wtf you guys are talking about.

Should I even gaf at this point?
 
You are right about my view on this, that it all just has to do with my personal preference and nothing else.
I somewhat hesitate to write the following, as I suspect that Newman will carve out things that he think will suit his narrative… :)

I simply prefer Atmos mixes where the goal has mostly been aimed at recreating something closer to what is normally heard at a live music event,

Live music sound is overrated. :)

But do Pink Floyd concerts count?
 
You can compare Madonna immaculate collection done in QSound (early analog phase shifting magic) and the more recent 5.1 release. I almost like the 2ch better.
A great example of the sort of case I mentioned before, thanks!
I prefer 'Vogue' as an upmix from The Immaculate Collection, to its new discrete surround mix.
 
I fully appreciate your preferences here but would simply again mention if that's what you like why bother buying any surround encoded recordings? A stereo mix into one of many up-samplers would get you what you like. There is very little to be gained from having more than 2 discrete channels if your not going to mix anything into them besides ambiance and crowd noise?
Just wondering, did you put together a surround rig mainly for movies/home theater use?
Again, why can someone not enjoy music as they wish. I agree with Goat, I think a drum coming from behind you with the rest of the kit elsewhere sounds silly. I think that, nobody else has to, and I can still find plenty of surround tracks to be enjoyable.

It just does not have to be the Sal or Newman way, or the highway.

Personal preference is just that. You do you etc etc? No.. ???
 
I think we may have to agree to disagree here. This IS merely your opinion vs mine, and I believe that you are truly, truly overthinking this.
Very much not so. See further down, "explaining phenomena".

Even at smaller gigs, in tiny venues, when the audience is not wrapped around the musicians, I have never seen placement of the musicians which would come to close challenging Goat's original point.
Still the same constraint: too many people (compared to one person at home) to do anything much more creative than shove the audience in a block in front of the musicians. So limiting. I don't expect to see much change in the live performance space: they are always designed for a relatively large audience (compared to one person at home), even though it was interesting to see mention a few days ago (somewhere, IIRC) of musicians placed in a rear balcony at a live performance.

It is not conditioning and, my resistance to your point is completely justified as it makes no sense whatsoever, at least in the context of this conversation. I can see how it could apply elsewhere, but not here.

His personal preference is completely and utterly just that, nothing more, not conditioning, nothing less. This is very, very straightforward indeed.

I don't think there is any need for further keyboard warrioring here (both of us). I'd prefer to get back to the original conversation.
You are right about my view on this, that it all just has to do with my personal preference and nothing else.
The "and nothing else" bit is interesting, because it suggests a desire to close down a learning opportunity.

I somewhat hesitate to write the following, as I suspect that Newman will carve out things that he think will suit his narrative… :)
Explaining phenomena is a key attribute of the science journey. Something that I enjoy, and a reason for most people to come here... rather than other audio forums where everyone basically opens a chat line of endless opinionation with zero learning or investigation, where every attempt to explain something gets shut down with "we'll have to agree to disagree" as if there is nothing more there, even if one opinion is wrong or overly simplified or misdirected. "Let's not investigate, let's agree to disagree instead". Hopefully, that is not ASR.

I simply prefer Atmos mixes where the goal has mostly been aimed at recreating something closer to what is normally heard at a live music event, and I would have found it equally distracting in a live event if one of the musicians decided to isolate himself, standing in one of the back corners of the venue playing his acoustic guitar, while the rest of the band members are up on the front stage performing together as a band.

I’m not strictly bound to full realism, and I’m definitely open to some creative choices when it comes to mixing a rock song, such as in using a large portion of the front stage for the drums even though that’s hardly realistic. But if the mixing engineer makes the choice of panning a tom drum to one of the surround channels while the rest of the drum set is at the front stage, I will find that rather distracting as that tom drum will just sound totally detached from the rest of the drums.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread about the Atmos mix of the Jimi Hendrix album, I don’t find it distracting at all that the surround channels are used in a creative way for the direct recorded sounds of the guitar sweeping around me at the listening position, and the surround channels are being used in an organic-sounding non-static fashion that doesn’t leave out a single instrument sounding isolated, which to me leads to a distraction from the overall music.

All this is just part of my personal preferences of what I see as tasteful vs distasteful ways of doing mixing an Atmos song. Nothing more, nothing less. :)
I saw you refer to the placement of music sources beyond the 'stereo wall' as "gimmicky". If that was deliberate, then it clearly implies that in your opinion this is not a simple matter of "preference, nothing more nor less", but there is a way to place the musicians in playback that has some foundational authenticity to it, and another way that is lacking in such attributes and is merely a trick or deception designed to deceive and draw attention to itself while not actually having any true merit (gimmick). In that sense, you are no longer saying simply "your opinion, my opinion" but you are now saying that there is objective correctness and incorrectness, objective depth and superficiality, existing in opposition.

==

I wish to point out to any third-party readers of this conversation, that denial of conditioning in oneself is completely normal. It is normal in everyday occurrences of conditioning, we just don't pay any attention to it. It is more easily seen by all of us in dramatic examples affecting third persons, eg conditioning through trauma, and conditioning through addiction (chemical and habitual): the phenomenon is the same but it is easier to see as a third party in those examples, but much much harder to see one's own conditioning (eg through trauma or addiction), and one of the most difficult steps for anybody to take in such examples is to recognise that the conditioning even exists, let alone acknowledge it's effect.

But it is absolutely irrevocable and in fact a fundamental part of mental processing: conditioning, adaptation and learning are constantly interweaving, and manifesting in attraction (preference) and aversion (non-preference). Applying this to the matter at hand, if someone had grown up conditioned to hearing music via spatial reproduction with a 'stage' presence instead of an 'audience' presence, I doubt that the introduction of their first 'audience presence' recording would elicit a response like "ah, that's better, I feel more comfortable this way" (see my next post for a bit more on this point). There is nothing innate about it. It's all conditioning.

Furthermore, this purist notion of 'locking in' on the way live music performances are presented as being the ideal way to present a recording at home, has no foundation in reality any more than the notion that negative feedback destroys purity of reproduction (plenty of people report hearing the 'life sucked out of the music' by negative feedback, because once they 'believe in' the ideal, they start hearing it). So, the only way to escape this 'funny feeling of wrongness' when the music sources stray beyond the front of the room, is to stop believing that front-on is the way it should be.

cheers
 
...Mark Waldrep of AIX used to do multi-positioned releases with On-Stage, Audience, and Headphone mixes in an effort to please everyone, a good option for all I guess....
...
Speaking of preferences . . . AIX Records had a release in 2001 Nitty Gritty Surround. ...There are two 5.1 mixes, audience and stage, which place you exactly as described, in the audience or on the stage with the musicians.
Mark Waldrep routinely released both audience and stage mixes of his work.

He was, perhaps uniquely, well placed to comment on the relative merits of the two ways of presenting the sonics. Not only did he have his own opinion and preference, but he also conducted many preference tests on customers and on clients (the performers), comparing the two mixes.

The bulk of his recordings were primarily acoustic, which one could argue provides the best opportunity for the traditional/audience mix to show its merits.

And yet, he is very clear about his findings. He personally found the stage mix to be vastly superior at bringing the listener close to the awesomeness of the music itself. Not "gimmicky", not "trickery": communicative. And, I would say surprisingly, he got the same overall response from his listening test subjects. Surprising, because they would almost invariably have been conditioned by 'audience' presentations, either live or recorded.

The fact that so many voted against their own likely conditioning, suggests to me that there may in fact be intrinsic preferential merit to the stage perspective mix. Perhaps one needs to be unusually strongly locked in to the audience presentation to resist the advantages on offer from the stage mix.

That's why I think there is an element of missing out for those who are most locked in by past conditioning and/or ideals of right and wrong. I can only encourage those people to see if they can find a way past it.

cheers
 
Still the same constraint: too many people (compared to one person at home) to do anything much more creative than shove the audience in a block in front of the musicians. So limiting. I don't expect to see much change in the live performance space: they are always designed for a relatively large audience (compared to one person at home), even though it was interesting to see mention a few days ago (somewhere, IIRC) of musicians placed in a rear balcony at a live performance.
Echoes of Time and the River composed by George Crumb has off stage musicians, as one example. But I think this discussion started raising the issue of conventional rock bands mixed with instruments in back, not avant-garde composition.
And yet, he is very clear about his findings. He personally found the stage mix to be vastly superior at bringing the listener close to the awesomeness of the music itself. Not "gimmicky", not "trickery": communicative.

I liked both but overall preferred the stage mix, keeping in mind that he was working in 5.1, i.e. no surround back. I'm not sure if I would have enjoyed the stage mix had it incorporated surround back. I suppose if I had excess energy I could re-route the surrounds to the back but, oh, whatever. Outside of music with substantial electronic components or deliberately abstract construction, I prefer it when the back speakers are used to simulate or reproduce what would be reflected sound from the rear of a performance space.
 
Very much not so. See further down, "explaining phenomena".


Still the same constraint: too many people (compared to one person at home) to do anything much more creative than shove the audience in a block in front of the musicians. So limiting. I don't expect to see much change in the live performance space: they are always designed for a relatively large audience (compared to one person at home), even though it was interesting to see mention a few days ago (somewhere, IIRC) of musicians placed in a rear balcony at a live performance.



The "and nothing else" bit is interesting, because it suggests a desire to close down a learning opportunity.


Explaining phenomena is a key attribute of the science journey. Something that I enjoy, and a reason for most people to come here... rather than other audio forums where everyone basically opens a chat line of endless opinionation with zero learning or investigation, where every attempt to explain something gets shut down with "we'll have to agree to disagree" as if there is nothing more there, even if one opinion is wrong or overly simplified or misdirected. "Let's not investigate, let's agree to disagree instead". Hopefully, that is not ASR.


I saw you refer to the placement of music sources beyond the 'stereo wall' as "gimmicky". If that was deliberate, then it clearly implies that in your opinion this is not a simple matter of "preference, nothing more nor less", but there is a way to place the musicians in playback that has some foundational authenticity to it, and another way that is lacking in such attributes and is merely a trick or deception designed to deceive and draw attention to itself while not actually having any true merit (gimmick). In that sense, you are no longer saying simply "your opinion, my opinion" but you are now saying that there is objective correctness and incorrectness, objective depth and superficiality, existing in opposition.

==

I wish to point out to any third-party readers of this conversation, that denial of conditioning in oneself is completely normal. It is normal in everyday occurrences of conditioning, we just don't pay any attention to it. It is more easily seen by all of us in dramatic examples affecting third persons, eg conditioning through trauma, and conditioning through addiction (chemical and habitual): the phenomenon is the same but it is easier to see as a third party in those examples, but much much harder to see one's own conditioning (eg through trauma or addiction), and one of the most difficult steps for anybody to take in such examples is to recognise that the conditioning even exists, let alone acknowledge it's effect.

But it is absolutely irrevocable and in fact a fundamental part of mental processing: conditioning, adaptation and learning are constantly interweaving, and manifesting in attraction (preference) and aversion (non-preference). Applying this to the matter at hand, if someone had grown up conditioned to hearing music via spatial reproduction with a 'stage' presence instead of an 'audience' presence, I doubt that the introduction of their first 'audience presence' recording would elicit a response like "ah, that's better, I feel more comfortable this way" (see my next post for a bit more on this point). There is nothing innate about it. It's all conditioning.

Furthermore, this purist notion of 'locking in' on the way live music performances are presented as being the ideal way to present a recording at home, has no foundation in reality any more than the notion that negative feedback destroys purity of reproduction (plenty of people report hearing the 'life sucked out of the music' by negative feedback, because once they 'believe in' the ideal, they start hearing it). So, the only way to escape this 'funny feeling of wrongness' when the music sources stray beyond the front of the room, is to stop believing that front-on is the way it should be.

cheers

Agreeing to disagree is this instance is an attempt to prevent repetition of the same points, by the self proclaimed authority in this discussion; an individual who accuses others of not having a willingness to learn, because they do not agree with his opinions and explanations. That is some pedestal you have placed yourself on.

Repeating the same statement with confidence does not make you the authority, or the teacher. We see the worst of our world leaders do so every day.

Neither do my comments deny the existence of conditioning, it simply does not apply here.

Some individuals here dislike the sound of live music, the result of that experience leading to preference. Much the same as my endless hours of listening allow me my own preferences. I am open to many things, enjoy tinkering and exploring new music, new sounds. But you can keep your drummer on the balcony behind you, for you.
 
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Live music sound is overrated. :)

But do Pink Floyd concerts count?
Live, amplified/reinforced sound is overrated...

Live unamplified acoustic instruments - massively underrated - some people have simply never heard unamplified instruments, and therefore have no baseline from which to compare/understand the timbre of real acoustic instruments.
 
Live, amplified/reinforced sound is overrated...

Live unamplified acoustic instruments - massively underrated - some people have simply never heard unamplified instruments, and therefore have no baseline from which to compare/understand the timbre of real acoustic instruments.
Yes of course, but outside of classical music in the finest venues, it is rare, effectively impossible, to have the opportunity to listen to music played on acoustic instruments without reinforcement, other than amateur gatherings. Fortunately, especially with Atmos, it is possible to record acoustic music in a way that captures the sound of the instrument in the room. Possible, but apparently rarely done. Eventually . . .

Of course, some instruments are always amplified (electric guitars, Hammond B3 organ etc.) but it used to be (maybe still is?) possible to hear music in a theater or club where with the right seats (front orchestra) you could hear the guitars etc. played directly through the stage amplifiers, and percussion without amplification, with the PA system sending sound up to the balcony and rear orchestra, or a small club where PA amplification not needed, and for me, this type of concert listening was equally thrilling as unamplified acoustic instruments. I found this preferable even where the PA amplification was high quality.
 
We've been pretty successful finding local restaurants/bars with live music, especially jazz, that is really outstanding. I totally agree that unamplified music is really impressive. In actuality it's generally reinforced though. It would be very interesting, to me at least, to see some research on what is different acoustically about live instruments compared to very well recorded and played back music. My subjective opinion is that it's something like the transients being clearer, especially in plucked string instruments like the bass and the attack in sax, but objective work would be good to see.

Maybe a billionaires hifi system should consist of a group of robots playing actual instruments? The ultimate player piano.
 
We've been pretty successful finding local restaurants/bars with live music, especially jazz, that is really outstanding. I totally agree that unamplified music is really impressive. In actuality it's generally reinforced though. It would be very interesting, to me at least, to see some research on what is different acoustically about live instruments compared to very well recorded and played back music. My subjective opinion is that it's something like the transients being clearer, especially in plucked string instruments like the bass and the attack in sax, but objective work would be good to see.

Maybe a billionaires hifi system should consist of a group of robots playing actual instruments? The ultimate player piano.
Apropos your comment, there was a sophisticated player piano back a hundred or more years ago that captured pedals and degree of force on the keys. There are two recordings (that I know of, perhaps someone else knows of others) Manhattan: Gershwin plays Gershwin and Stravinsky Plays his Firebird Complete both on the Klavier label - KS 133 and KS 126 respectively. Both are excellent, but sadly, apparently never released on CD, though LPs available on the secondary market. Maybe someone recorded and posted them somewhere.
 
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