The Problem With Dolby Atmos

[Sal1950]

I had a processor like that. Interesting question, when you change the mode is it playing the bed, or is it playing back the entire TrueHD file. The Tide is playing the entire 7.1 file. There is no way (that I've found) to disable the Atmos feature leaving the bed channels only. I'm not sure if I'd want to, but so far as I know, it can't be done on the Tide.

??? It does then ignore the Atmos metadata and disable any height speakers.
Then it's playing the TrueHD lossless file alone using as many bed channels are in the mix 5,7,or 9,

 

[BJL]

??? It does then ignore the Atmos metadata and disable any height speakers.
Then it's playing the TrueHD lossless file alone using as many bed channels are in the mix 5,7,or 9,

It's not disabling the height speakers, they remain active (ie for ART) it is disabling decoding. I think this is something a Dolby expert could explain.

 

[Sal1950]

It's not disabling the height speakers, they remain active (ie for ART) it is disabling decoding. I think this is something a Dolby expert could explain.

I don't have ART so can't comment on that, but putting up the GUI screen here shows only my base 5.1 speakers active after changing mode to TrueHD without Atmos?

 

[Sal1950]

It's not disabling the height speakers, they remain active (ie for ART) it is disabling decoding. I think this is something a Dolby expert could explain.

Sounds more like a bug in ART software.
Why should heights remain active if no signal is being sent to them?

 

[Mark609]

Watched Dune last night.

Unreal........

 

[BJL]

I don't have ART so can't comment on that, but putting up the GUI screen here shows only my base 5.1 speakers active after changing mode to TrueHD without Atmos?

The couple of times I've checked, the sources (always from blu ray) without decoding always show as seven channels plus sub. Of course I have to disable ART otherwise it will show signals on all 16 channels. I think that we are having a slight terminology confusion. When someone writes "heights disabled" or the like I read it as actually turned off, as in disconnected from the system. I realize now that you meant, no signal from input to the heights/wides (ie Atmos positions.)

The Tide16 has a chart showing the signal flow from input to output. I've gotten in the habit of thinking in those terms.

 

[Sal1950]

Watched Dune last night.

Unreal........

Which one ?

The Tide16 has a chart showing the signal flow from input to output. I've gotten in the habit of thinking in those terms.

As does my Marantz, separate input and output channel charts
Atmos input = all of my 9 speaker channels active.
Change mode to Dolby TrueHD = only my 5 bed speaker shown active.

Partner I have no idea where your going with this ?
Again if ART shows all your channels active at all times, somethings wonky with the ART GUI, why should that be?
Probably not audible in any case, it's simply giving you mis-information.

 

[Newman]

Being uncomfortable with any spatial presentation that places any musical sources anywhere other than front-on, tells me a fair bit about the lack of sonic adventurousness of the listener.

I know people in other walks of life who are similarly unadventurous. Don't want to travel. Don't want to experience different cultures. Can only see the negative when the world inevitably changes. etc, etc

Yet there is a question that confronts these attitudes: if you had grown up with it, would you still have the same issues? Whenever this question has been properly put to the test, so to speak, the answer generally becomes, "no, absolutely not". Which, in turn, reveals that the negativity isn't even speaking to one's innate preference, but merely to one's temporary conditioning.

If you are not willing to even challenge your own temporary conditioning, you are really, truly, deeply unadventurous. Just give it a proper go! And that means mindset (I'm going to teach myself to think about this differently, which implies growth), not just repetition (I tried it again and again, my opinion stands).

cheers

 

[goat76]

Being uncomfortable with any spatial presentation that places any musical sources anywhere other than front-on, tells me a fair bit about the lack of sonic adventurousness of the listener.

I know people in other walks of life who are similarly unadventurous. Don't want to travel. Don't want to experience different cultures. Can only see the negative when the world inevitably changes. etc, etc

Yet there is a question that confronts these attitudes: if you had grown up with it, would you still have the same issues? Whenever this question has been properly put to the test, so to speak, the answer generally becomes, "no, absolutely not". Which, in turn, reveals that the negativity isn't even speaking to one's innate preference, but merely to one's temporary conditioning.

If you are not willing to even challenge your own temporary conditioning, you are really, truly, deeply unadventurous. Just give it a proper go! And that means mindset (I'm going to teach myself to think about this differently, which implies growth), not just repetition (I tried it again and again, my opinion stands).

cheers

Sorry, but this is one of the most extreme generalizations I have ever read in this forum, and it probably tells more about you as a person than it does of anyone who just happens to prefer a more realistic presentation of a sound mix.

As an example, a single isolated instrument mixed to a position somewhere behind the listening position while pretty much everything else in the mix is somewhere at the front stage, will simply just make that lonely instrument sound detached from the rest of the music mix.
Just because I find that type of mixing mostly geared towards “a circus-attending” type of crowd, it doesn't mean I’m unadventurous, is afraid of traveling, or don't want to experience other cultures. It simply means I don't share the same taste in how some music mixes are done.

 

[Sal1950]

As an example, a single isolated instrument mixed to a position somewhere behind the listening position while pretty much everything else in the mix is somewhere at the front stage, will simply just make that lonely instrument sound detached from the rest of the music mix.

Have you ever heard someone do a mix like that? In 50+ years of surround music listening I've never heard one.

 

[Matt S]

Sorry, but this is one of the most extreme generalizations I have ever read in this forum, and it probably tells more about you as a person than it does of anyone who just happens to prefer a more realistic presentation of a sound mix.

As an example, a single isolated instrument mixed to a position somewhere behind the listening position while pretty much everything else in the mix is somewhere at the front stage, will simply just make that lonely instrument sound detached from the rest of the music mix.
Just because I find that type of mixing mostly geared towards “a circus-attending” type of crowd, it doesn't mean I’m unadventurous, is afraid of traveling, or don't want to experience other cultures. It simply means I don't share the same taste in how some music mixes are done.

Newman's point was indeed an extreme generalisation. I agree that the instruments belong on stage, with the band, excluding some electronic music of course, when its made that way intentionally (and more likely sounds than actual instruments).

 

[Matt S]

Watched Dune last night.

Unreal........

Both are fabulous. Epic soundtrack too. Cannot wait for the third installment.

 

[Sal1950]

I'm curious if @Sal1950 and @goat76 have listened to the Atmos mix of Talking Heads More Songs etc. Mix by Jerry Harrison & engineer Eric Thorngren. The approach to Atmos varies from song to song. Some are firmly anchored to the front (@goat76) while others use somewhat unconventional panning to bring out processed guitar and similar abstract sounds, (@Sal1950 ). I happen to have just listened to the album straight through, and because of this recent back and forth on Atmos approaches, and because you both had interesting insights, I wondered if you have listened to this and had any comments. Apologies if you dislike Talking Heads.

Most of the songs seem to be 9.x.4 (no top middle) with one or two that do not use the front wide position.

Just finished listening to the Atmos TrueHD mix, very immersive and very much fun. Interesting how they seemed to reinvent the perspective for almost each cut. About the only constant is David singing mostly front center. Otherwise a new 360 canvas was continually being repainted. Good stuff
I've been in love with Tina Weymouth for 50 years.

 

[Sal1950]

Both are fabulous. Epic soundtrack too. Cannot wait for the third installment.

I have to admit I was never a huge fan. To be honest I don't think I've watched either 1 or 2 front to back, I'd just get bored and walk away to come back later.
That's just me though.

 

[goat76]

Have you ever heard someone do a mix like that? In 50+ years of surround music listening I've never heard one.

It's quite interesting that you have never heard that in any Atmos mixes. I even gave an example of that in a post that you replied to on the previous page, where Steven Wilson, in a song by the band Yes, has made the choice to pan the tom drums to the surround channels while the rest of the drum set is panned to the front channels, and a synth instrument is isolated to the right surround channel area, which after a while is replaced by an acoustic guitar.

The thing is that it takes much more skill to try to achieve a mix that sounds realistic, than what it is making a “collage” of detached sound objects randomly spread out to different bed channels.
It’s mostly distracting compared to a real live music event to hear an acoustic guitar being played somewhere behind me, as I have never attended a live show where one of the musicians have made the choice of standing alone behind the listening crowd. Mixing choices like that is just bad taste, and a show-off of what can be done, but it should basically just entertain people who need obvious exaggerations or seek gimmick-like entertainments.

 

[Sal1950]

As an example, a single isolated instrument mixed to a position somewhere behind the listening position while pretty much everything else in the mix is somewhere at the front stage,

I even gave an example of that in a post that you replied to on the previous page, where Steven Wilson, in a song by the band Yes, has made the choice to pan the tom drums to the surround channels while the rest of the drum set is panned to the front channels, and a synth instrument is isolated to the right surround channel area, which after a while is replaced by an acoustic guitar.

So now you want to change the rules of the game?
First you talked about a single instrument in the rear and a basic stereo front stage.
Now you talk about a mix that pans part of the drum kit and a synth into the surrounds, and I don't know what else, there's more I'm sure.
I Just listened to Fragile earlier and it's fantastic!

So yes your first claimed mix would sound silly to anyone, but no one has, including Mr Wilson
Maybe there's something wrong with your systems speaker balance?

 

[goat76]

So now you want to change the rules of the game?
First you talked about a single instrument in the rear and a basic stereo front stage.
Now you talk about a mix that pans part of the drum kit and a synth into the surrounds, and I don't know what else, there's more I'm sure.
I Just listened to Fragile earlier and it's fantastic!

So yes your first claimed mix would sound silly to anyone, but no one has, including Mr Wilson
Maybe there's something wrong with your systems speaker balance?

I have not “changed any rules of the game”, I have been talking about the same things related different approaches to Atmos mixing in all my responses.

Please explain to me what you thought I was talking about. Did you really think I was talking about an Atmos mix that only contains one single instrument and nothing else, or what?

 

[somebodyelse]

Watched Dune last night.

Unreal........

Epic soundtrack too.

Given the coincidental choice of words I have to point out Epic's Unreal Engine for game development supports spatial audio and Dolby have an Atmos plugin for it. I've got a vague memory of someone trying to make an audio player using it too.

 

[goat76]

I'm curious if @Sal1950 and @goat76 have listened to the Atmos mix of Talking Heads More Songs etc. Mix by Jerry Harrison & engineer Eric Thorngren. The approach to Atmos varies from song to song. Some are firmly anchored to the front (@goat76) while others use somewhat unconventional panning to bring out processed guitar and similar abstract sounds, (@Sal1950 ). I happen to have just listened to the album straight through, and because of this recent back and forth on Atmos approaches, and because you both had interesting insights, I wondered if you have listened to this and had any comments. Apologies if you dislike Talking Heads.

Most of the songs seem to be 9.x.4 (no top middle) with one or two that do not use the front wide position.

I’m listening to the Talking Heads album More Songs About Buildings and Food right now, and I think in general that way too many sound objects are panned the surround channels, and often too loudly. In most of the tracks it’s as if there are two separate mixes, one for the front channels and one for the surround channels, which are almost competing against each other for attention instead of sounding like a coherent whole. It’s as if the mixing engineer mostly avoided to pan much of anything as phantom sounds between the front speakers and the surround speakers in these mixes.

The tracks With Our Love, The Girl Wants to Be With the Girls, Artists Only, and The Big Country, are the ones that sounds a bit better balanced than the rest of the tracks on the album. That’s my take on this album.

 

[Sal1950]

Please explain to me what you thought I was talking about. Did you really think I was talking about an Atmos mix that only contains one single instrument and nothing else, or what?

That is exactly what you said, read your post, I already quoted for you once.