The price of popularity - forum SINAD

[JeffS7444]

For those who subscribe to Curiositystream, I found a remarkable documentary about the art world, and research done to discover what made some artists succeed, while others remained obscure, despite similar backgrounds, even works which were indistinguishable from each other's (Jean Michel Basquiat, Al Diaz). It became a study of connections, and the more artists they analyzed, the more commonalities they discovered in the career trajectories of those who succeeded.

Annamaria Talas: The Science of Success
https://curiositystream.com/video/2951

I mention this, because I wonder if such a tool already exists for forum software: If we were to judge certain ASR threads as having high value, and others as being more dubious, might we find commonalities here too, in terms of members most associated with each type of thread?

 

[Digby]

I had noticed this in the past in other audio related forums too and I see it lately happening in ASR. Some initially small forums with high quality of content due to a rather small and very dedicated member group get due to their quality and other reasons more and more popular which is of course something positive as this results more and more people subscribing and increasing their knowledge and understanding in those topics. Unfortunately such popularity attracts in parallel though disproportionately more members who combine very limited interest to learning with a high self esteem and output flow rate. Members with high knowledge level initially try to counteract on those posts but get tired in the long run and reduce their output resulting an decreasing "forum signal to noise and distortion" ratio. I used to enjoy some high quality forums and learn a lot from them but when this happening I feel I am just wasting time reading the same discussions over and over again which can be shortly described with pigeon chess. I know this will possibly sound elitist to some and I hope I could provide some solution so people (I had talked in the past with some members which felt the same when they left their previous forums and joined also ASR) don't need to search for the "next ASR" all the time, except some unpopular ideas like limiting number daily posts per member so they might consider well what they write although damage can be done of course with few posts. This is also no criticism to the moderation which in my long experience with internet forums is here doing one of the best jobs I have experienced but in the end has also limited options and resources. Would like to hear your opinions and experiences about it.

What do you expect from this thread?

1) If you only want a highly knowledgeable, small group then you need a private forum with limited member access and vetting in advance. You could make your own private forum, send out invites and allow new members on the basis on voting by the group. That is one solution.

or

2) One way to increase knowledge would be for the experts here to writer primer/introduction to x papers. A lot of information about audio is buried deep in 500 pages books, so few except the dedicated will read. Some won't have the mathematics ability to comprehend what is in these books, so that is a barrier to entry.

Perhaps you could write a primer about something, thewas, maybe some others could too, then you wouldn't have to repeat yourself ad infinitum, just link to the primer.

As a non-expert, I have to say, SOME experts (caps and bold, for emphasis) have a less than patient attitude with we dabblers, and occasionally reply with sarcasm/derision. Maybe they are bored of the same old questions, maybe they have heard it all before, but maybe...they were also once as ignorant as we are, and can cast their minds back to such a time when they asked and said stupid things.

This is an open forum and presumably @amirm wants it that way, so with increasing membership what you describe will happen, sooner or later, as on all open forums.

 

[thewas]

Why would this forum be particularly interested in purely subjective conclusions like speaker preference (i.e. outside of what measurements can point to)? Your taste in speakers could well not be mine.....like food or drink....

Exactly, I have also no problem at all reading subjective experiences, only when they are used to draw flawed conclusions and these are then presented not as opinions but as generalisations and absolute truths.

 

[thewas]

What do you expect from this thread?

As I wrote in the initial post which you quoted I don't really see a feasible solution, this is a discussion how others see it as maybe it could be just my impression, although from the responses now it doesn't seem this way.

Perhaps you could write a primer about something, thewas, maybe some others could too, then you wouldn't have to repeat yourself ad infinitum, just link to the primer.

I have even done that, this is though just a partial solution as we are talking more about people who ignore all the facts they are confronted with, see pigeon chess.

As a non-expert, I have to say, SOME experts (caps and bold, for emphasis) have a less than patient attitude with we dabblers, and occasionally reply with sarcasm/derision. Maybe they are bored of the same old questions, maybe they have heard it all before, but maybe...they were also once as ignorant as we are, and can cast their minds back to such a time when they asked and said stupid things.

I personally doubt that experts reply with sarcasm/derision when they see real interest of learning from the newbie side, the problems occur only when the ignorance is combined with very high self confidence.

 

[Digby]

I personally doubt that experts reply with sarcasm/derision when they see real interest of learning from the newbie side, the problems occur only when the ignorance is combined with very high self confidence.

I wonder how much someone who was completely new to the topic could learn from a forum. They would probably be much better with a reading list. Whatever they learn, there will be likely be significant holes in their knowledge.

Perhaps the problem is that everyone, in some sense, is equal on an open internet forum.

As for very high self esteem, well, this is the internet, it is par for the course. These forums are usually quite polite, in that there is little swearing and deliberate antagonism is usually kept to a minimum, which is no mean feat with only a handful of moderators. I think people here are mainly pretty well behaved.

As I wrote in the initial post which you quoted I don't really see a feasible solution, this is a discussion how others see it as maybe it could be just my impression, although from the responses now it doesn't seem this way.

I suppose almost everyone who was on any forum in the early days, will think that it was better in the past, for reasons you've already said regarding signal to noise. I'd be surprised if more than a handful of people said the opposite.

 

[fredoamigo]

When I arrived on this forum in 2018 there were 4 or 5000 members with a good proportion of experts and highly qualified amateurs. Today there are 10 times more members but the proportion of experts is the same as in 2018 so there is a dilution. at that time, there were really exciting discussions and especially very instructive as this one https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...r-perception-of-audio.501/page-16#post-130632https/or only qualified speakers intervened... it is however simple and natural it seems to me to say with humility here I do not intervene in this discutions because I do not have the level and I am very far from it as lately here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...adiation-via-lateral-slots-like-d-d-8c.37863/
Despite the fact that this forum is somewhat "victim of its success" it remains irreplaceable in my eyes .

 

[thewas]

As for very high self esteem, well, this is the internet, it is par for the course. These forums are usually quite polite, in that there is little swearing and deliberate antagonism is usually kept to a minimum, which is no mean feat with only a handful of moderators. I think people here are mainly pretty well behaved.

As said the problem are not newbies which sincerely are interested to learn and behave kindly, but people who for various reasons just join to claim their wrong and unproven believes and just look for self confirmation in these.

 

[solderdude]

Popularity of a website attracts more and more people.
The ones really interested in the measurements etc. already joined long ago.
So the newer 'head-fi style' people will relatively grow bigger and content/noise ratio will get bigger (equal content, more noise).

When I have not logged in for a day or so I have to go 3 pages back to see what's new from the last check-in. A few years back it was half a page at most.
About 95% of those new posts do not interest me as they are mostly opinions.
It is what it is. That's the price of popularity.

 

[Mart68]

As said the problem are not newbies which sincerely are interested to learn and behave kindly, but people who for various reasons just join to claim their wrong and unproven believes and just look for self confirmation in these.

On the other hand such people tend to create a Platonic Dialogue with the expert members. I think that is useful for everyone reading the exchange who is actually interested in learning. The majority of such readers may not even be members.

 

[digitalfrost]

I always like to link this article which describes the rise and fall of subcultures:

Geeks, MOPs, and sociopaths in subculture evolution | Meaningness

How muggles and sociopaths invade and undermine creative subcultures; and how to stop them.

meaningness.com

I think it fits quite well to the current situation. I don't have a solution. When things get popular quality goes down, just how it is. We could make admission harder, let's say membership by invite only, but that would only work if there's punishment for inviting "bad" people. But who would be the judge of that?

And I can already imagine the threads at other places how elitist ASR is and how we walled ourselves in because we can't have an open discussion in our cult

 

[Triliza]

More and more people are promoting and defending the idea that measurements are good to a point and in the end it comes to subjective impressions and common sense to talk about things. This is true from a point of view (as we are by nature such), but don't take into account that this forum is about the science and knowledge there is known to us up to now, and we (not me) know with certainty a good deal about many things. The subjective and speculative approach is what it is, and should be called out for that.

So, let us use again more often the golden motto:

Prove it or shut up. Show us the data, a well documented blind test, a paper, whatever is appropriate or it didn't happened.

Harsh, but it may be necessary to put things back on track.

 

[BDWoody]

Ordering by likes results in more of the hive mind thinking and crowd-sourced knowledge that can often be quite wrong. It's a poor substitute for learning for yourself and for critical thinking.

Amen.

He wants to grow ASR, but how and in what direction seems to be a somewhat open question. If it is to grow, then many members, myself included, will be in need of some help understanding certain ideas and concept -

I don't pretend to know much about audio science, but where I feel (sometimes only intuition, others times a haphazard attempt at logic) something isn't quite right, I don't mind having a go at some criticism.

Why not try to learn more through your own efforts?

 

[Peluvius]

I have found the title descriptions useful to help me weight the information I am reading and an excellent feature of this forum. Likes, dislikes and general activity are not great indicators of the quality of information on the internet.

ASR Forum Member Tag/Title Descriptions

Hello everyone. Good suggestion was made to post the various titles we have on the forum. Some are obvious, some are not so. Here they are. Founder/Admin = Amir’s Account Tag. Owner, Creator of ASR. CFO (Chief Fun Officer) = Amir’s Tag. Administrative = I don’t usually login under this but it...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Rick Sykora]

Sadly, the base-level noise floor at ASR has risen exponentially of late. To such an extent, I often type a carefully structured and technical reply to help someone, only to just delete the draft and go do something else. Life is too short and I don't feel like unnecessary explanations, arguments and potential disagreements.

This is unfortunate, but have been in the same spot at times.

My solution has been to use personal messaging instead.

Really improves the SINAD!

 

[Blumlein 88]

Someone mentioned that experts are short tempered with non-experts sometimes. First off I am not an expert. I do know some things, but not like the real experts on the forum.

One's mood effects your response of course. So sometimes I'm willing to hand hold someone understanding something I know and they don't quite get. Sometimes I'm short with someone especially if I have or I have seen others answer the same question 3 times in a week, and they've not made the slightest effort to search for simple answers. Sometimes I delete my short tempered posts a minute later. And worst of times the moderators help me out by deleting for me.

I try to remember when someone asks what they think is a simple question and don't realize they need to do some work to even understand the answer, obviously if they knew that then they wouldn't need to ask. Some of those however get almost belligerent that a simple answer they understand isn't possible. Other than noting that, offering some sources they can study, I don't know what you can do for them.

This is the best moderated forum I know of and they do a job I wouldn't wish on anyone.

I do think this forum has a big advantage going for it in that it isn't sponsored. It is Amir's and he isn't tempted to bend toward sponsors for income. Some of us make donations to help defray the costs, but sponsor-based corruption leading to a watered down approach to reach the largest number of people isn't a factor.

 

[skraz]

I wonder how much someone who was completely new to the topic could learn from a forum. They would probably be much better with a reading list. Whatever they learn, there will be likely be significant holes in their knowledge.

Perhaps the problem is that everyone, in some sense, is equal on an open internet forum.

As for very high self esteem, well, this is the internet, it is par for the course. These forums are usually quite polite, in that there is little swearing and deliberate antagonism is usually kept to a minimum, which is no mean feat with only a handful of moderators. I think people here are mainly pretty well behaved.


I suppose almost everyone who was on any forum in the early days, will think that it was better in the past, for reasons you've already said regarding signal to noise. I'd be surprised if more than a handful of people said the opposite.

I am very new to this hobby, i did research through google before buying my first setup, that research led me here. I then spent ages reading heaps of threads (and i mean like 2 weeks, hours each day) until i came to a conclusion what would suit my needs the most, doing all that i have learnt a heap, enough to know that i barely know anything and i need to keep learning.

But to my point, I consider a newbie (cause i am one) could learn an incredible amount from this forum as long as they are using critical thinking to sift through the noise and actually pay attention to what is being said by the experts here etc

if you fail to learn as much, then maybe you need to re-evaluate your critical analysis of data presented

 

[Thomas savage]

' Man complains about forum SINAD by creating thread of pure noise and distortion '

The Irony seemingly lost on so many suggests we are all the problem to a greater or lesser extent .

Do your own noise shaping, ignore what's of no value to you and follow a few folks that are .

It's always a challenge for the knowledgeable to interact with the ignorant, we've been fortunate here in that regard and I hope that continues as it always was a cornerstone of ASR . Increasingly though people's behaviours ( a societal phenomenon) make that more and more difficult, its not something that can be solved by moderation, mitigated possibly but even that's incredibly ambitious and certainly a weight of responsibility no person wants to or indeed should be expected to feel .

To the knowledgeable members that are at the sharp end of the war on 'idiocy , ignorance and arrogance ' i say thank you . To maintain that willingness I'd suggest those members need to feel they are a part of a project, of something bigger and worth suffering the collateral damage of regular profound annoyance , as soon as that feeling of the greater good goes ., well there's a million other better things to be doing isn't there .

You can't change human nature , you can however harness aspects of it to serve a common goal . You just need to Foster the feeling of togetherness and mutual respect.

Or just sod it all and go do something better, just about anything else other than communicating with strangers in a almost un-salvagably corrupt and ultimately unfit for the ambitious purpose way bound as we are by this medium.

Often while I sort to encouraged folks towards this ' shared goal ' would feel like a act of abject cruelty and bought forward feelings of guilt in me as I knew it was not in their best interests... imo at least .

 

[KSTR]

To me, a public forum is just a public forum and by definition quite "noisy". I see and use it as a database of lots of helpful information and sometimes a good conversation and sharing of thoughts and experiences does actually happen. But I try to don't care if doesn't and I don't care about all those meta-discussions (like this IMHO silly member tags discussion lately) and I don't mind about trolls, backseat drivers, claqueurs, know-it-alls, thread jackers, evangelists etc (from both sides, that is). Rather, I try judge posts by content, not by style or meta-intention. If an a**hole has something meaningful to say, I'm fine with that.

What I find the biggest issue these days is the limit of 10 pages of "what's new" content which only covers a day or two. I cannot see any reason why time-line based access is limited at all (in other forums I visit is isn't).

 

[danadam]

What I find the biggest issue these days is the limit of 10 pages of "what's new" content which only covers a day or two.

Why not use "New posts" instead of "What's new"?

 

[MaxwellsEq]

This is the best moderated forum I know of and they do a job I wouldn't wish on anyone.

I agree. The moderation feels light-touch which helps prevent a "monotone" of posts and responses; but it does manage to step in at the right time with the right approach.