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The price of popularity - forum SINAD

thewas

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I had noticed this in the past in other audio related forums too and I see it lately happening in ASR. Some initially small forums with high quality of content due to a rather small and very dedicated member group get due to their quality and other reasons more and more popular which is of course something positive as this results more and more people subscribing and increasing their knowledge and understanding in those topics. Unfortunately such popularity attracts in parallel though disproportionately more members who combine very limited interest to learning with a high self esteem and output flow rate. Members with high knowledge level initially try to counteract on those posts but get tired in the long run and reduce their output resulting an decreasing "forum signal to noise and distortion" ratio. I used to enjoy some high quality forums and learn a lot from them but when this happening I feel I am just wasting time reading the same discussions over and over again which can be shortly described with pigeon chess. I know this will possibly sound elitist to some and I hope I could provide some solution so people (I had talked in the past with some members which felt the same when they left their previous forums and joined also ASR) don't need to search for the "next ASR" all the time, except some unpopular ideas like limiting number daily posts per member so they might consider well what they write although damage can be done of course with few posts. This is also no criticism to the moderation which in my long experience with internet forums is here doing one of the best jobs I have experienced but in the end has also limited options and resources. Would like to hear your opinions and experiences about it.
 
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Digby

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I think I know what you mean. Unfortunately, some people seem to want to 'do battle' on the internet and have a needlessly abrasive tone. I have noted this often seems to be in a negative relation to their knowledge (less knowledge can equal more abrasive). However, on the other hand, I will say there does seem to be a certain viewpoint espoused from some members of a 'one true way'. I, being the difficult person I am, always try to argue against anything that might seem like a dogma.

I don't pretend to know much about audio science, but where I feel (sometimes only intuition, others times a haphazard attempt at logic) something isn't quite right, I don't mind having a go at some criticism. I know I might have started a few threads that, to some, might have seemed controversial for their own sake, but really were only meant to stimulate interesting discussion. I think there is often a difficult balance to be struck.

I suppose the only way to keep a forum very 'on message' is to limit the number of posters to a select group. Probably about 200-300 members, but then I don't think that is Amir's agenda. He wants to grow ASR, but how and in what direction seems to be a somewhat open question. If it is to grow, then many members, myself included, will be in need of some help understanding certain ideas and concept - does he want to do provide more educational content for them or continue mainly with product reviews? I don't know.

Perhaps ASR is going through its difficult adolescent period?
 

DMill

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Keep in mind that not all threads are devoted to measurements and tear downs of audio equipment. In fact some of the more popular posts are things like, what are you drinking and what are you currently listening to. So while most members may not be expert technicians or industry insiders they may bring vast knowledge in something else discussed. My audio IQ has gone up quite a bit since joining but try to edit myself from talking about things that are beyond understanding. It seems that most times people are things sort themselves out. Personally, I’d hate to see limits on posting beyond the ones that are currently in place. The moderators seem to be doing a great job shutting that down fast.
 

Owl

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The, "something for everybody" approach sounds great but usually leads to a lack of focus on the core intent. Scientific Review of audio equipment and discussion. The attraction that I have is the world wide view and knowledge of people who are in the business or were, and can now share their knowledge. With the world going off the edge with foolish stupidity, it is a nice escape to spend time with objective reality.
The main issue that any forum has is the level of members will always range from beginner's to experts. This is probably unavoidable. As I get older I do feel an obligation to help the next generation. I hope other feel the same.
 
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thewas

thewas

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In fact some of the more popular posts are things like, what are you drinking and what are you currently listening to. So while most members may not be expert technicians or industry insiders they may bring vast knowledge in something else discussed.
I don't refer of course to posts in the "Other Areas of Interest" section as there of course non audio and chit chat content is welcome, but the technical sections.
 

antcollinet

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..... I will say there does seem to be a certain viewpoint espoused from some members of a 'one true way'....


The only "one true way" here is that of evidence and science backed engineering.

There is either measurements/established science/evidence - or there is opinion and subjectivity. Opinion/subjectivity not backed up by evidence carries little weight here. If you want to call that "dogma" then so be it.
 

Mnyb

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Clear evidence of this is that there is far to many cable treads and to many discussions about The “sound” of DAC’s
 

Digby

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I could lecture you on how to budget and save money.
You could, but because I am young(ish), you know in advance that I'm not going to heed your advice, right?

There is either measurements/established science/evidence - or there is opinion and subjectivity. Opinion/subjectivity not backed up by evidence carries little weight here.
Hmm, I'm not sure, there are things some say that superficially seem scientific, but are not truly based on science/evidence. Here is a list of things I can bring to mind that I often hear, that I think fit the bill:

1) That a speaker that measures well, will be preferred on an individual level and can be bought unheard (see recent thread about buying speakers without listening). I think this is probably a mischaracterisation of blind testing, which is done in groups. It may predict for the group, but not the individual.
2) That well measuring speakers are much of a muchness. JBL M2, Genelec 8361 and Revel F228Be are essentially 'as good' as each other. Well, on what metric - they all have strengths and weaknesses. Individual preference/situation will dictate what is best - subjectivity can hardly be avoided here.
3) That you cannot hear a continuity of speaker 'character' across differing, 'typical' listening rooms. You must hear in your own room, to make any judgment.
4) That your hearing can change so much from day to day that what you prefer one day, may not be the same the next. I suppose if you are unwell this is true, but some suggest that your hearing exists solely to confuse you, and that you should never trust it. What should you trust then, I wonder?

How could we possibly have survived our distant past if there wasn't a way to recognise a friendly individual's voice in whatever environment we were in - we'd be dead, killed by some foe. I accept that ears and measuring equipment are not one and the same, but the distrust some have in their own ears, seems to be a misunderstanding of the science, rather than the science itself.

This should be enough to get us started, I suppose.
 

antcollinet

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You could, but because I am young(ish), you know in advance that I'm not going to heed your advice, right?


Hmm, I'm not sure, there are things some say that superficially seem scientific, but are not truly based on science/evidence. Here is a list of things I can bring to mind that I often hear, that I think fit the bill:

1) That a speaker that measures well, will be preferred on an individual level and can be bought unheard (see recent thread about buying speakers without listening). I think this is probably a mischaracterisation of blind testing, which is done in groups. It may predict for the group, but not the individual.
2) That well measuring speakers are much of a muchness. JBL M2, Genelec 8361 and Revel F228Be are essentially 'as good' as each other. Well, on what metric - they all have strengths and weaknesses. Individual preference/situation will dictate what is best - subjectivity can hardly be avoided here.
3) That you cannot hear a continuity of speaker 'character' across differing, 'typical' listening rooms. You must hear in your own room, to make any judgment.
4) That your hearing can change so much from day to day that what you prefer one day, may not be the same the next. I suppose if you are unwell this is true, but some suggest that your hearing exists solely to confuse you, and that you should never trust it. What should you trust then, I wonder?

How could we possibly have survived our distant past if there wasn't a way to recognise a friendly individual's voice in whatever environment we were in - we'd be dead, killed by some foe. I accept that ears and measuring equipment are not one and the same, but the distrust some have in their own ears, seems to be a misunderstanding of the science, rather than the science itself.

This should be enough to get us started, I suppose.
1- Don't mistake all individuals postings as being necessarily science grounded - or part of the "dogma" of ASR (if you like)
2- Be careful not to misinterpret what is being said.
 

pierre

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We could use some ML to classify interesting (or not) messages. It requires that you taggued some messages as interesting ("some" being a few hundreds per section) and then the algorithm would work pretty well and would reduce the signal to noise by a fair amount with of course a few errors. Another option is to agressively filter people out ...
 

Digby

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1- Don't mistake all individuals postings as being necessarily science grounded - or part of the "dogma" of ASR (if you like)
I don't, but I do believe some things are taken as read to easily. I don't (and didn't) say it is the dogma of ASR, more so that there is a certain orthodoxy of thinking here (on these forums), as there are different orthodoxies elsewhere.

2- Be careful not to misinterpret what is being said.
There is either measurements/established science/evidence - or there is opinion and subjectivity. Opinion/subjectivity not backed up by evidence carries little weight here. If you want to call that "dogma" then so be it.
This is not quite correct or you have not stated what you mean completely clearly. Which is objectively better, a narrow directivity speaker or a wide directivity one? Are horns objectively better than dome tweeters. There are plenty of questions that do not have a scientific, binary yes/no answer.

There are situations where subjectivity may be the only judge and science has little to say on the matter.

For example, can you tell me, using measurements alone, which is the best speaker out of the three I mentioned earlier: JBL M2, Genelec 8361 or Revel F228Be. Your quote above suggests a ranking system is possible, and therefore the best could be deduced, from measurements alone.
 

Digby

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We could use some ML to classify interesting (or not) messages. It requires that you taggued some messages as interesting ("some" being a few hundreds per section) and then the algorithm would work pretty well and would reduce the signal to noise by a fair amount with of course a few errors. Another option is to agressively filter people out ...
That does risk encouraging a 'hive mind' though, a la Reddit.

I think the OPs post was a little vague, perhaps he could clarify a little, perhaps with some examples, because we are at risk of arguing about something different than what he meant.
 

Marc v E

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We could use some ML to classify interesting (or not) messages. It requires that you taggued some messages as interesting ("some" being a few hundreds per section) and then the algorithm would work pretty well and would reduce the signal to noise by a fair amount with of course a few errors. Another option is to agressively filter people out ...
I think this is actually quite a good idea. If I understand you correctly you propose to order posts based on likes. Thus the ones with the higher number of likes come first, then the rest. It works for Stackoverflow, so it might work here as well.

Edit: you could enhance above feature by letting some members' posts take preference based on their title. For example Technical expert and Industry expert always first or something along those lines.
 
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DMill

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I think this is actually quite a good idea. If I understand you correctly you propose to order posts based on likes. Thus the ones with the higher number of likes come first, then the rest. It works for Stackoverflow, so it might work here as well.
It’s an interesting idea. I would like it much better if you could sort by likes rather than it being a mandate.
 

Mnyb

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I’ll try to start very few topic on my own , as I really don’t have anything earth shattering to add to the fray .
I’m here for the fun and learning part of the forum.

We are so many now so even if Amir and the other parties doing real reviews and articles posts daily they migth still get swamped by us others , so I’ll start to pay even more attention to not spam to much :) even if I’m very fond of the exchange here.

So if everyone just tries to listen to those who really have something to say we be good . And don’t start the nth spam tread about cables , or indignation treads on what’s up on “internet” re audio ? It never ends.
 

FrantzM

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Hi.
ASR seems to be a vibrant forum with imperfections... Those come with/from Human Nature.
The Forum is relatively new, yet has sent and continue to send, ripples through the industry; one can infer from that, whatever we and in particular Amir are doing, is working and well... thus...
I would suggest to leave things as they are.. for now , anyway...
Repeating and shouting a bit: Leave it ALONE!

Peace
 
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