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The post in which Darko basically tells anyone who isn't a rich rube to ignore him and audiophilia in general

Robin L

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Nah. That's the shibboleth audiophiles often mouth, but it's clearly not true. If it were, we wouldn't have forums like this and many others (and magazines) devoting so much time and discussion to the gear. The gear aspect to guys, in this hobby and elsewhere, is like shiny dangling things to a cat. We can admit it. :)
Show-me-the-shiny.jpg


maxresdefault-27-750x422.jpg
 

Dmitri

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Nah. That's the shibboleth audiophiles often mouth, but it's clearly not true. If it were, we wouldn't have forums like this and many others (and magazines) devoting so much time and discussion to the gear. The gear aspect to guys, in this hobby and elsewhere, is like shiny dangling things to a cat. We can admit it. :)
Damn you. Busted again. ; )
Still...and upon reflection...the advantage to digital is it takes much of the hardware out of the equation. So in a sense, it becomes more about the music, at least for me.
But it’ll never be as sexy as analog two channel, because you really can’t do anything to improve upon it. What you can do is in the remaining analog domaine..the loudspeaker. For all intensive purposes, DA conversion has been nailed. 120 SN is meaningless unless you’re a bat, so the fun playing with hardware days except for speakers) is essentially over.

And yes, as I edit this, I know Class D amps aren’t digital...but so many of them test so well, it’s pretty much purchase, install and replace them only when they die. Upgrading has become even more of an illusion than ever before. And “Upgrading” is fun, right?

Those turntables are ridiculous. I think one of them might have been a fusion reactor though, or at least just a slightly modified one... ; )
 
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KaiserSoze

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I'd say you're optimistic about the potential longevity of digital media, I'm skeptical. Check back in in 10,000 years, ok?
Skepticism is generally healthy, but of course we are not discussing a scientific hypothesis per se. The question we are discussing is one where it seems fair to ask whether the skepticism is well-informed, i.e., whether the skeptic has studied among other things the mathematics of cyclic redundancy checks.

I am fairly confident that among people who truly understand the question at hand there is consensus that the specific reason I discussed, for why digital encoding of audio is inherently superior to analog encoding of audio, is the correct, primary reason. People whose interest in the question stems from their appreciation for high fidelity will generally answer the question from that perspective, i.e., the demonstrable differences in the sound quality for, most often, CD vs. vinyl. However, there is not likely any inherent reason why analog encoding of audio cannot be every bit as good as the best digital encoding, for however long the analog encoding survives anyway. To illustrate this point I will point out that it is possible to use the analog signal from a microphone to modulate the amplitude or frequency of a high-frequency carrier and record the carrier on a videotape machine similar to a video signal. Of course this is what home VCRs did, some of them at least, although I'm not knowledgeable of what level of quality would likely be assigned to the particular method used in actual practice. Whatever limitations there were, when this technology was in common use two or three decades ago, there is no inherent reason why this method couldn't be improved, essentially at whim, to the point of being entirely indistinguishable from the best digital recordings.

Thus, it is not entirely correct to view superior fidelity as the essential, primary advantage of digital encoding of audio over analog encoding of audio. I'm not suggesting that you wrote anything the least bit contrary to this, I'm merely pointing this out because the discussion wandered down a path where it now seems relevant to point this out in a plain manner. The true, primary advantage of digital encoding of audio is with the long-term survivability and preservation of the encoded information.

Of course it is conceivable that some great catastrophe will occur before 12020 comes around, such that civilization collapses. I think it would be a stretch to use this kind of possibility to argue against the assertion that present-day digital encodings of audio will survive long into the future, longer by orders of magnitude in fair comparison to the survivability of analog recordings.
 
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Jimbob54

Jimbob54

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Thread Starter #545
If we are I'd consider it a complete abject failure of the universe.
Fairly sure, barring meteoric or ET interference, humans will still exist. We may well hold the position rats and roaches currently occupy, but we will exist.
 

KaiserSoze

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Even if they hire an electrician to make a fixed installation, it should be cheaper and technically better than those power cords. I wonder if any of those enthusiasts has advocated that.
It is an obvious rebuttal to their claims of the benefit of expensive power cables. The inexpensive power cable that is two meters long can't possibly matter as much as the much longer run of 12/3 house wiring in the walls. Or the wire that leads from your house back to the transformer. But if you deem the inexpensive power cable a problem that needs to be rectified, the most obvious and most logical way to do that would be to extend the house wiring all the way out to the equipment rack, using the same 12/3 single-strand wire used inside the walls of your house.

No one has ever offered any explanation for how expensive power cords could possibly make any difference. The very first thing that pops into the head of the human animal is "How could this possibly be?" It is basic human nature to try and understand and explain how and why things happen. At least half of everything that people have ever said, collectively, amounts to an attempt to explain how or why something happens. But not Fremer. In that video he said:

"AC power cords make a big diff ... you really owe it to yourself to find a way to replace all your AC power cords with really expensive ones..."

This again illustrates the reason that I say that Fremer must be well aware that he is lying. It is so freakin' obvious that power cords could not possibly make any difference, that no person who isn't completely bonkers could possibly believe, for even a second, that power cords would matter (except in the case of a cord that gets too hot and catches fire). Fremer has to know that he is lying when he tells people they should replace all their power cords with expensive power cords. He probably also knows full well that he is lying about the different sound of different tone arms. He probably also knows that he is lying about the sonic superiority of vinyl over CD. I say again that there is no possible way that he does not know that he is lying.
 
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Robin L

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Fairly sure, barring meteoric or ET interference, humans will still exist. We may well hold the position rats and roaches currently occupy, but we will exist.
And I am really not so sure. In any case, the universe doesn't care. Homo sapiens is not the center of the universe. What we have to worry about most of all is human interference, and as long as there are humans, there will be human interference. If we hold the position rats and roaches currently occupy, we won't be servicing servers in that [hopefully] far future.

While the goal and intent of digital systems is permanence, those are goals, nothing that has been realized as of yet.
 

Robin L

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That is one shiny turntable. I suppose the reason for two tone arms is so that you can skip forwards or backwards by 9/10 of a second. Or maybe so that you can listen to one track in one ear while using the other ear to listen to a different track. I'll bet that cat can do that.
I'd bet on a mono cartridge on one, stereo on the other. When I was making needledrops, needed multiple styli for different types of discs.
 

KaiserSoze

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Ha! Indeed, like my turntable:

View attachment 79153

In fact at one point I was experimenting with employing some LED lights, which I would have embedded hidden in a frame around the turntable platform, to increase the shine factor:

View attachment 79154

Never got around to doing it though.
You could also hang a little cow bell on the side so that it makes a little ringy sound each time it goes around.
 

KaiserSoze

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Damn you. Busted again. ; )
Still...and upon reflection...the advantage to digital is it takes much of the hardware out of the equation. So in a sense, it becomes more about the music, at least for me.
But it’ll never be as sexy as analog two channel, because you really can’t do anything to improve upon it. What you can do is in the remaining analog domaine..the loudspeaker. For all intensive purposes, DA conversion has been nailed. 120 SN is meaningless unless you’re a bat, so the fun playing with hardware days except for speakers) is essentially over.

And yes, as I edit this, I know Class D amps aren’t digital...but so many of them test so well, it’s pretty much purchase, install and replace them only when they die. Upgrading has become even more of an illusion than ever before. And “Upgrading” is fun, right?

Those turntables are ridiculous. I think one of them might have been a fusion reactor though, or at least just a slightly modified one... ; )
I'm not sure why people want to make a point about PWM not being digital. The reason is simply that even though the amplitude switches between two states, the duration at either amplitude varies in a continuous and unrestricted manner whereas with digital signals that are deemed true digital signals the transitions between states are restricted to occur only in synchronization to a clock signal. Is this an important distinction? I suppose it depends on the context in which the question is taken up. To my way of thinking, the mere fact that the signal is restricted to two states means that it is at least a close cousin to a digital signal. Does this mean that it would be correct to call a Class D amplifier a digital amplifier? Probably not, but I'm still waiting to be put in charge of what people are and are not allowed to call stuff.
 

KaiserSoze

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And I am really not so sure. In any case, the universe doesn't care. Homo sapiens is not the center of the universe. What we have to worry about most of all is human interference, and as long as there are humans, there will be human interference. If we hold the position rats and roaches currently occupy, we won't be servicing servers in that [hopefully] far future.

While the goal and intent of digital systems is permanence, those are goals, nothing that has been realized as of yet.
There isn't much question at this point that there are some very warm days ahead for our great great grandchildren. There is a real possibility that a sort of "tipping point" will occur if the reflectivity of the polar ice caps is lost. I don't think anyone could say at this point what the likelihood is that this will happen, or how severe the consequences may be should it happen.

On the more immediate question, your comment about the pending realization of the goal of permanence of digital encoding is valid, but it is also a very easy position to take. There can be no denying that digital encoding of audio possesses an inherent quality of permanence by which it is fundamentally distinguished from analog encoding. This has nothing in particular to do with the permanence of the media per se. Would you please be so inclined as to indicate agreement on this point at least? Pretty please?
 

Dmitri

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Fairly sure, barring meteoric or ET interference, humans will still exist. We may well hold the position rats and roaches currently occupy, but we will exist.
Which means essentially, we will rule the earth then? I suspect if alive at all, those rats and roaches will be the dominant species.

Regarding digital media, that it can be consistently copied totally lossless...as long as new copies are made prior to any potential degradation of the previous, the point seems moot...but I don’t want to get to far into this for my sanity’s sake...And because my intellect has a tough time with big words.
The survival of our digitized history, whether music or other, is purely tied to the survival of human civilization, or at least to the continuance of what we currently now consider worth saving. Think what we might know of history if the library of Alexandria had not been purged...

Then again, perhaps the Rats and Roaches will carry on for us.

There isn't much question at this point that there are some very warm days ahead for our great great grandchildren. There is a real possibility that a sort of "tipping point" will occur if the reflectivity of the polar ice caps is lost. I don't think anyone could say at this point what the likelihood is that this will happen, or how severe the consequences may be should it happen.
No doubt. Vinyl will not do well. ; )
 

MattHooper

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Damn you. Busted again. ; )
Still...and upon reflection...the advantage to digital is it takes much of the hardware out of the equation. So in a sense, it becomes more about the music, at least for me.
But it’ll never be as sexy as analog two channel, because you really can’t do anything to improve upon it. What you can do is in the remaining analog domaine..the loudspeaker. For all intensive purposes, DA conversion has been nailed. 120 SN is meaningless unless you’re a bat, so the fun playing with hardware days except for speakers) is essentially over.

And yes, as I edit this, I know Class D amps aren’t digital...but so many of them test so well, it’s pretty much purchase, install and replace them only when they die. Upgrading has become even more of an illusion than ever before. And “Upgrading” is fun, right?

Those turntables are ridiculous. I think one of them might have been a fusion reactor though, or at least just a slightly modified one... ; )
Oh I get what you are saying when saying that for you digital takes a lot of hardware out of the equation.

It's the age old dance for audiophiles where, unlike the cheesy cliche that we care about gear not the music, most of us really are very heavily in to music and it's our prime motivation for owning a hi-fi system. But we can have that struggle sometimes of where getting mired in all the technical stuff can start feeling more like a distraction and we want to get back to that former innocence where it was "just the music" with no thought of the gear.

And I'd bet that for many audiophiles, as it was for me, that some initial formative moments, first hearing music on a great system, spurred the journey and it's also sort of what we are trying to get back to, if not preserve. That is, you were a music lover, then you heard some music you like on a fantastic sound system, say a pal who got in to hi-fi before you, and it blew your mind. But it's like the perfect nirvana moment where you are a total music lover, whose experience of the music is utterly elevated by hearing it as you'd never heard it before, but you aren't yet an audiophile aware of all the technical and gear issues, not involved in pursuing your own system, so you get that perfect mesh of focusing on the music with a "wow" of the enhanced audio quality, without the distracting neurosis in knowing all about the gear.

I've seen exactly this experience happen for countless guests of mine, where I play music they love, they are just hypnotized and utterly blown away by the music and sound, but in a pure way undiluted or distracted by the actual technology involved.

Anyway, as to "getting back to it being all about the music," your example of digital shows why this is so subjective.

It makes perfect sense to think that a digital system will be a more direct path to just listening to the music, in theory anyway, given all the gear and tweaky concerns that go along with a turntable system. The fact that it works out in practice for many who made that switch makes perfect sense. But...we all have our own idiosyncratic brains and histories, so it's not one size fits all.

For me, it was getting back in the vinyl that made it "more about the music," in the sense of allowing me to relax more and just enjoy listening to music vs interrogating my audio system. I think some of it came from the fact that there was just a natural lowering of expectation with vinyl. It's imperfect, I expect it to be imperfect, so my expectations are lowered in terms of perfectionism. Which actually makes me relax. That plus the way the physical aspects seem to focus me more on listening through albums, rather than flicking through songs on my digital system.
 

Dmitri

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I'm not sure why people want to make a point about PWM not being digital. The reason is simply that even though the amplitude switches between two states, the duration at either amplitude varies in a continuous and unrestricted manner whereas with digital signals that are deemed true digital signals the transitions between states are restricted to occur only in synchronization to a clock signal. Is this an important distinction? I suppose it depends on the context in which the question is taken up. To my way of thinking, the mere fact that the signal is restricted to two states means that it is at least a close cousin to a digital signal. Does this mean that it would be correct to call a Class D amplifier a digital amplifier? Probably not, but I'm still waiting to be put in charge of what people are and are not allowed to call stuff.
Because to be quite honest, most of us plebes really don’t know D from G from H, or even A from B or A/B for that matter, beyond the basics. I amended my post because I didn’t want the multitude of more knowledgeable people on this site to give me grief thinking I confused class D with Digital.

See where that got me... ; )
 

KaiserSoze

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I'd bet on a mono cartridge on one, stereo on the other. When I was making needledrops, needed multiple styli for different types of discs.
Oh damn, there's actually a reason for it? I would have thought (naively) that the way stereophonic grooves are cut would insure backward compatibility, such that a stereo cartridge would read a monaural disc much the same as a cartridge designed specifically for monaural discs.
 

KaiserSoze

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Which means essentially, we will rule the earth then? I suspect if alive at all, those rats and roaches will be the dominant species.

Regarding digital media, that it can be consistently copied totally lossless...as long as new copies are made prior to any potential degradation of the previous, the point seems moot...but I don’t want to get to far into this for my sanity’s sake...And because my intellect has a tough time with big words.
The survival of our digitized history, whether music or other, is purely tied to the survival of human civilization, or at least to the continuance of what we currently now consider worth saving. Think what we might know of history if the library of Alexandria had not been purged...

Then again, perhaps the Rats and Roaches will carry on for us.



No doubt. Vinyl will not do well. ; )
Yeah, all the vinyl is gonna melt into big lumps. Good for Fremer he won't be around to see it.
 

sergeauckland

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Oh damn, there's actually a reason for it? I would have thought (naively) that the way stereophonic grooves are cut would insure backward compatibility, such that a stereo cartridge would read a monaural disc much the same as a cartridge designed specifically for monaural discs.
Yes and no. A stereo cartridge will output any vertical rumble on the LP, which in the days of mono would not have been a consideration so may be higher than an LP cut on a stereo lathe.

Also, a mono cartridge ideally will have a different profile to a stereo cartridge as the grooves were slightly wider and a modern stereo cartridge will ride lower in the groove and pick up more of the dirt etc in the bottom.

S
 

mhardy6647

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The worldradiohistory.com website is absolutely wonderful. Not all that interested in Stereophile (to which I have a subscription that I keep trying to cancel, but can't -- don't ask!) ... however ... they have what looks like a complete collection of Wireless World (before it became Electronics World). As a schoolboy in the early 70's, a highlight of the month was when the next WW issue came out. Hmm ... I was probably a strange sort of schoolboy ... :) ... That collection has sorted out my reading list for some time to come ... They also have a Studio Sound collection ... that was a great pro-audio magazine back in the day ... Wow!
Oh it is a phenomenal resource. Astonishing, actually. Especially for free. I hope it stays that way (but the depth and breadth of the content, plus the searchability of the scans, would even be worth paying for).

If one likes (or loves) pop music -- there's essentially a complete archive of Billboard.

"An embarrassment of riches" as an erstwhile boss of mine was wont to say.

He listens to cables. I just tried listening to a few of mine. They all sound the same, silent.
Did you stick 'em in your ears? I think you'll hear the sea if you do.

:rolleyes:

That's why I make my own interconnects using piano wire.
or a surplus, old-school (metal) Slinky.
 
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