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The pain of being a member of ASR

MKR

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That sounds like an addiction. Try that angle. Like gambling, only sometimes with gambling you win.
Do we need an AA, Audiophiles anonymous?
Well said, I think (sadly) not far from the truth. We as humans can as we all know become addicted to anything to our detriment, audio no different. Everything in moderation makes for a happy human for the most part :)
 

fpitas

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Do we need an AA, Audiophiles anonymous?
Differences.jpg

It might have saved him.
 

Multicore

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The thing about objectivist caring about how other people spend their money (the classic) is red herring of worst kind. It's used in a few ways, most often for provoking arguments, as copium or attempt to rally likeminded persons to a circlejerk.

In reality, very few people care at all where others spend their money, least of all anonymous forum users. But in this case these people make the claim that these "silver necklaces" really make the sound better. Implicitly telling that if you cannot hear it there is something wrong with you or your equipment.

That is something about this debate I really dislike. Subjectivist people commonly complain that objectivists insult them, are elitist, prejudiced or just downright mean. Yet they fail to see how their own statements are also kind of a challenge. Think about it, what does it actually mean when a subjectivist tells that there is a huge, night and day difference between some boutique dac and perfectly measuring Topping?
Correct. I've made essentially the same point here myself more than once.

I've tried so many times to settle the argument by asking if a mild subjectivist, who says he just wants to let anyone to enjoy what they like, to change his statement about for example power cables to: "using this cable enhances my experience but I'm not 100% if the effect is real or placebo". Nobody has agreed to that one, which would end the argument right there. So it again becomes "my cable is better than yours but it's not your fault that you cannot hear it because of some deficiencies you have".
Afaict, I believe I agree in on your arguments but I'm still not prepared to get upset about any of this. The fact that these arguments are going on at all, at the level that people talk about losing friends over them, is way more interesting to me than who is right. So that's where I direct my attention.

Belief in the transparency theory (that non-distorting, non-coloring, quiet equipment is preferable, central to the ASR method) is really hard to justify at a personal subjective level. In principle I think it can be done but it's a huge amount of work. I just accept it a priori as I believe a lot of us here do. I think there are a lot of good augments for accepting and using it as an engineering foundation and that's what I do. It is massively simplifying and has an admirable position in the traditions of AV engineering. But I don't know for sure that I wouldn't prefer something different. I just can't face the task of trying to find it. It's too much work.

Within a functionally transparent system we know that the silver in the USB cable won't make a functional difference but this misses the point. In fact I think that's talking past the one who brags about their silver USB cable. It's a category error. I'll try to explain.

I've said over and over that we are in fact all subjectivists and that's how it should be. I choose belief in transparency and the systems theory and engineering that follows from it. I'm a live and let live kinda persona so I allow that my friend may choose belief in the silver USB cable. I'm pretty sure it won't make a measurable change in the performance of the system but this is categorically different from the question of my friend's subjectivity. I would prefer if my friend enhanced the experience with scented candles or a bottle of Echezeaux but that's my arrogance again, projecting my subjectivity.

Recognizing the category error, as I think you explained in your last paragraph, surely could end some of these arguments. So I guess the issue resolves to another ancient question: why are we so stubborn?
 

MattHooper

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The pain of being an ASR member is that, if people in a more subjectivist forum find out, you are often immediately branded a "Troll" (and unquestioning cult member).
 

Anton D

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The pain of being an ASR member is that, if people in a more subjectivist forum find out, you are often immediately branded a "Troll" (and unquestioning cult member).
Yikes.

That's quite the cross we bear.

That's like saying you don't believe in the "100 point wine rating scale" when checking out a new wine chit chat forum.
 

Sokel

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Its not the cable (measure it) unless its too long, its the device powering it.
Oh,it's so much the cable in a gazillion on occasions,no one knows that pain unless they use PC powered interfaces.

Most of them are at the very edge of the 500mA usually provided by a USB2 port.
Best reliable USB cables are -believe it or not- the ones that comes with HP printers (the grey ones) probably HP orders by certification,people hunt for them.

And let's not talk about USB A to USB C ones,Khadas's forum is full of (the nice looking with fabric) failed ones.

Edit:The most funny aspect of the later is that sometimes work plugged by the one side of the USB C end or the other!

Get certified,that's the only choice.
 

bodhi

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I've said over and over that we are in fact all subjectivists and that's how it should be. I choose belief in transparency and the systems theory and engineering that follows from it. I'm a live and let live kinda persona so I allow that my friend may choose belief in the silver USB cable. I'm pretty sure it won't make a measurable change in the performance of the system but this is categorically different from the question of my friend's subjectivity. I would prefer if my friend enhanced the experience with scented candles or a bottle of Echezeaux but that's my arrogance again, projecting my subjectivity.

We are, absolutely. In fact, even after having drunk the objectivist kool aid for a couple of decades and believing in the science 99,9% I still have a least a few k worth of equipment that doesn't make any sense in a purely objectivist sense. No magic cables but unnecessarily performant stuff for my use.

And I still think my Sinxer SA-1 sounds better than my Topping. I know it really doesn't, but there you have it. I know I'm completely vulnerable to all kinds of biases when demoing stuff while seeing what's playing.

Funny thing is that when I brought the last point up in another forum the subjectivist went bonkers, "BOOM! So you are a fake objectivist after all". They just can't understand what objectivism is and what it isn't. But to be honest, my views on the subject are kind of abstract and borderline philosophical, which isn't the case of average hobbyist.

And that being the case I'm not even sure if there is any point in arguing when the other side just likes to have some fun and exchange power cable experiences with like minded individuals. That's why ASR is the place to be: because everybody who signs up knows what the baseline here is and if somebody is pissing in your cornflakes you practically passed him the bowl.
 

jsrtheta

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Sadly?

I can think of reasons to not want someone as a friend, e.g. the person is a blowhard, or an a-hole, or a bigot, or a bore. But over what kind of USB cable they enjoy? Really? That's like choosing friends based on what side they part their hair. Not that anyone has a side parting these days. You know what I mean.
Watch it. I part my hair on the side.
 

Sokel

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I agree about the addiction of people.
But I also believe that it should be adressed like any other addiction,like gabling,etc.

Aside from that,what some people don't (want) to understand is that there is a good portion of people who don't aim at the bare minimum.And that goes for anything.
Even budget companies know that,for example I think I saw an SMSL for 3-4k.Ok,it's not a status item but it may well be in country of origin.

Looks,size,pedigree is by far the most important aspects in HEA,but not only there,that even applies in houses.
 

Timcognito

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I agree about the addiction of people.
But I also believe that it should be adressed like any other addiction,like gabling,etc.

Aside from that,what some people don't (want) to understand is that there is a good portion of people who don't aim at the bare minimum.And that goes for anything.
Even budget companies know that,for example I think I saw an SMSL for 3-4k.Ok,it's not a status item but it may well be in country of origin.

Looks,size,pedigree is by far the most important aspects in HEA,but not only there,that even applies in houses.
Ditto about gambling, without hijacking the thread. In the US it is now on the internet and ruining peoples appreciation for organized sports.
 

Timcognito

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MattHooper

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Yikes.

That's quite the cross we bear.

That's like saying you don't believe in the "100 point wine rating scale" when checking out a new wine chit chat forum.

I'm used to it :)

I try to take the high road and be civil. I don't just jump in to any thread and say "you are all delusional!" For instance on another forum there have been a couple threads on "cable deniers" and "blind tests" which naturally invite comment, so I gave my view, which included my reasons for holding some skepticism about some of these claims, e.g. high priced cables etc. The problem is that any justification that includes the idea that audiophiles can be imagining sonic differences is seen by some as a personal attack on their integrity. And no matter how civil you are, you get ad hominem and attempted belittling replies. So I'm getting the usual stuff like this one:

"im glad your system is wire with zip cord for speakers and $2 interconnects, enjoy"

And being called a "troll" etc. (In fact, even being accused of adopting multiple screen names to troll...yeesh!)

I just keep in mind that any forum has it's childish or dogmatic members, they will likely yap loudest, but other people are reading who might find something interesting or of value in the conversation.
 

Anton D

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Ditto about gambling, without hijacking the thread. In the US it is now on the internet and ruining peoples appreciation for organized sports.
I'm drifting with you. Anything that can make people care about a game between the Carolina Panthers vs. the Chicago Bears is a danger to society.

(Pardon me being flippant about a real problem, I am 100% with you on the topic.)
 
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Noske

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Belief in the transparency theory (that non-distorting, non-coloring, quiet equipment is preferable, central to the ASR method) is really hard to justify at a personal subjective level. In principle I think it can be done but it's a huge amount of work. I just accept it a priori.

I've said over and over that we are in fact all subjectivists and that's how it should be. I choose belief in transparency and the systems theory and engineering that follows from it.

It isn't. That the listener prefers the absence of 2nd and 3rd harmonics introduced by the amplifier is a purely subjective preference, by definition.

You concede that in the second quoted paragraph. (I'll ignore the words "should" and "belief" as those words are not in my vocabulary.)

I think that there may be a subtle logical error in the final quoted sentence, perhaps a non sequitur of sorts?

Edit. I am not disagreeing with you. I take issue with the words objective and subjective, as if these are two distinct camps. They are not.

ASR is a measurements forum, which makes it objective and scientific in its approach. That there are then certain preferences overlayed on that makes it subjective.

May not those in "subjective" forums benefit from the measurements provided by Amir by choosing gear in the red zone?
 
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F1308

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Despite ASR has gained big popularity over the years, the world we live in is still full of audiophools. Many of them are, sadly, our friends. It's not enough to unfriend them over their belief in things that we believe are non senses/snake oils, but it's sometimes painful to see what they do or hear what they say about audio.
Today a friend of mine reach out and told me that he got a new silver USB C to USB C, and claimed it brings a lot of clarity to the sound. the harshness he had before was gone.
If I hadn't been on ASR, it was probably fine for me. But now it is so painful to read what he says

It was never a better time for this gif
View attachment 330903
Just in case the harshness he had before have a come back, gone you said, simply tell him to place the cable in the fridge for some hours.

It goes without saying that as it gets colder any space breaking the flow of equal temperament notes do dissapear as the metal parts come close to each other, thereby the music is carried easily and will finally show what it was meant by the composer.

:):):):)
 

Benesyed

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We can't control what other people do or say. We can only control our reactions. In my opinion, a "just and noble cause" has been the reason behind more misery in the history of the human race than anything else.

If they're your friends, just let it go. Good friends aren't a dime a dozen, y'know. ;)

Jim
Haha yeah I wouldn't lose friends over audio. That's audio foolish.
 
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Timcognito

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