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The pain of being a member of ASR

Mean & Green

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Two things I don't like to see -

people asking for advice and being told to waste their money on a load of nonsense.

people backing up their subjective experience with bogus technical reasons/evidence. Okay - you perceived a difference. I believe you. Just leave it at that.
Agreed and the more time I’ve spent here reading and researching, the more sickening it is reading other audio outlets and social media.

So many are still completely uneducated and then are unfortunately lead by those with completely false and flawed notions.
 

EdW

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I must now be careful not to offend anyone, because that is not my intention. I was surrounded by electrical engineers in my profession for a long time and worked with them. Some of my friends who are electrical engineers are also bosses of successful electronics companies. I've noticed that most of them have very little interest in cultural topics, are enthusiastic about art, fashionable clothes, and so on. They seem to have a have a more 'pragmatic' worldview. You won't meet them in a concert hall at a classical concert or at the theater. Of course there are exceptions, but that's my observation. That also means, and this is my point, that you can't talk to them about such things like music in deep.
I would think that the ASR community, a large number of whom are engineers, would probably not match your profiling of engineers being disinterested in classical music :)
Whilst I was working as an analog IC designer some of my colleagues were indeed fairly accomplished musicians so my experience here is a little different than yours. Now in retirement and living in Cambridge UK I can pick and choose which classical concert I wish to attend from a choice of several every day during the university terms. Interestingly in the more intimate setting of the various college chapels of the university, where you are perhaps less than 10 metres from the performance, you get a very different perspective than in a large concert hall. Soloists will adjust their performance for the venue so that they are not straining for maximum volume all the time. Altogether more enjoyable!
Plus the shorter lunchtime concerts are usually free.
A few concerts a week soon start telling you what to listen for selecting speakers. Along with reading a few ASR threads it certainly changed my outlook.
 

computer-audiophile

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I would think that the ASR community, a large number of whom are engineers, would probably not match your profiling of engineers being disinterested in classical music :)
Thank you for your assessment, yes that could well be the case. I hadn't thought of that. Incidentally, I first studied chemical engineering, but you wouldn't know it from looking at what I was doing else. :)
 
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computer-audiophile

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Now in retirement and living in Cambridge UK I can pick and choose which classical concert I wish to attend from a choice of several every day during the university terms. Interestingly in the more intimate setting of the various college chapels of the university, where you are perhaps less than 10 metres from the performance, you get a very different perspective than in a large concert hall. Soloists will adjust their performance for the venue so that they are not straining for maximum volume all the time. Altogether more enjoyable!
Cambridge must be a great place! I haven't been there yet.

We really like this kind of 'near field' performance too. We've been to performance in various Universities of Music etc. for decades. I like big stages and also house concerts. Mainly live, contemporary or classic. Tonight there is a private evening in our neigborhood in honor of Callas featuring the 100th birthday of the great opera singer, where a friend of mine who is a professional opera singer will be singing some famous arias.
 
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EdW

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Cambridge must be a great place! I haven't been there yet.

We really like this kind of 'near field' performance too. We've been to performance in various Universities of Music etc. for decades. I like big stages and also house concerts. Mainly live, contemporary or classic. Tonight there is a private evening in our neigborhood in honor of Callas featuring the 100th birthday of the great opera singer, where a friend of mine who is a professional opera singer will be singing some famous arias.
The concert in honour of Maria Callas should be a truly memorable evening, particularly since you know the soloist. Enjoy!
 

DonR

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Having an electrical engineering background, I’m not offended by your comment at all. I don’t think I fit into any of that category - but maybe it’s because I’m merely at ‘technician‘ level rather than a design engineer but I don’t think that matters.

I build and install industrial electrical equipment with my hands that is designed by someone else. Often having to put right their mistakes, or engineer my own solutions to problems that they have missed at the design stage. Sometimes the theoretical side of things doesn’t fully match up with reality depending on the scenario.

Anyway apologies, I’m digressing. I’ve worked closely with many electrical engineers over years. I don’t think I could classify any of them as being strictly pragmatic in their world view and tastes. I honestly haven’t found them to be different to anyone else, other than having a very mathematical mind. Of course YMMV.
Unfortunately it is a common stereotype that has continued for years. Often such views have more to do with the observer than the observed.
 

Astoneroad

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This cognitive dissonance is a deal breaker for me, audio is just one of the areas that it rears its' head. I've found that a way to break a relationship is to discuss the concept of quality as presented by Pirsig in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"... works every time. If I wanted to end a romantic relationship, I'd watch "The Pope of Greenwich Village" with her... this has worked on 3 occasions over 3 decades. Dissonance has a double meaning on ASR and works either way to conform to this thread.
 

Killingbeans

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That also means, and this is my point, that you can't talk to them about such things like music in deep.

I think you absolutely can do that. They just have a different definition of deep conversation. One you'd might not appreciate ;)
 

Multicore

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It's more like someone believing that parting their hair on a certain side will make them smarter... but that's still certainly forgivable to a great extent.
Sure, if you prefer. There are way more worrying morally questionable beliefs, dispositions and history of behavior that I allow in friends. I think this goes to the definition of friendship. If there isn't enough loyalty there to get me past a silly USB cable, what is really the nature of the relationship? Or perhaps, what's wrong with me?
 

fpitas

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I'd only do some kind of intervention if a friend was spending beyond their means on snake oil.
 

MKR

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I'd only do some kind of intervention if a friend was spending beyond their means on snake oil.
Exactly. I have seen multiple situations where someone could clearly NOT afford a particular piece of HEA gear (by afford I mainly mean they would go into significant debt to make the purchase) but they were being fully mesmerized and taken in by the snake oil salesperson (some of whom in this hobby are very good at convincing folks to believe the nonsense). In these cases I do all I can to convince them otherwise, but the psychology and “dark side of the force” can be sadly impossible to overcome much of the time.

On the other hand I have also had situations where friends/acquaintances could easily make the big purchase of the snake oil. In those cases I of course offer my opinion, mainly that is not best use of your money, but in the end their money and if it makes them happy to purchase the snake oil, knock yourself out.
 

bodhi

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I've found that a way to break a relationship is to discuss the concept of quality as presented by Pirsig in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"... works every time. If I wanted to end a romantic relationship,

No wonder there. I think the explanation is found in the beginning of the book where the main character explains that people tend to have either classic understanding of the world, in which they see the world as it is, or romantic understanding where they experience the world mainly by the emotions it excites in them. Usually, women fall into the latter category and the ideas in that book might appear alien or even uncomfortable to them. The book is also very hard to grasp (at least for my intellect) and the ideas are very abstract. I usually "get it" only when I read it and then couple months later I kind of don't.

This classic vs. romantic understanding seems to fit very well into our objectivist vs. subjectivist audiophile debates. I think the book also says that you can't make a romanticist to "just get it" by piling on rational arguments as they don't want to. It's also implied that the romanticists will get offended is someone challenges their views whereas the classicist usually doesn't. It is what it is and it's waste of time thinking this it is somehow unfair or people should just be better.

Unfortunately I have not learned the lesson from the book and both in hifi and relationships (amongst many other things) I have refused to accept that some people can't or won't talk about things by just talking about the things and not bringing their emotions (which have their places, of course) into it. Probably mainly because I'm slow to understand when the discussions ceased to be harmless. :)
 

Astoneroad

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No wonder there. I think the explanation is found in the beginning of the book where the main character explains that people tend to have either classic understanding of the world, in which they see the world as it is, or romantic understanding where they experience the world mainly by the emotions it excites in them. Usually, women fall into the latter category and the ideas in that book might appear alien or even uncomfortable to them. The book is also very hard to grasp (at least for my intellect) and the ideas are very abstract. I usually "get it" only when I read it and then couple months later I kind of don't.

This classic vs. romantic understanding seems to fit very well into our objectivist vs. subjectivist audiophile debates. I think the book also says that you can't make a romanticist to "just get it" by piling on rational arguments as they don't want to. It's also implied that the romanticists will get offended is someone challenges their views whereas the classicist usually doesn't. It is what it is and it's waste of time thinking this it is somehow unfair or people should just be better.

Unfortunately I have not learned the lesson from the book and both in hifi and relationships (amongst many other things) I have refused to accept that some people can't or won't talk about things by just talking about the things and not bringing their emotions (which have their places, of course) into it. Probably mainly because I'm slow to understand when the discussions ceased to be harmless. :)
Agreed. However, I was referring to all relationships regarding "Zen...". Gender doesn't really apply as much as the difference between classic/romantic viewpoints. However, Pope of Greenwich village has been gender charged in my experience. Yes... I think that the ASR objectivist/subjectivist schism is the same battle under a different name. It didn't start in our lifetime... although it may very well end in our lifetime. Seize the day.

Pirsig's "Monkey Trap" (Stew wording added for laughs)
In colonial times, monkeys were trapped using a hollowed coconut connected to a stake in the ground. A hole was carved in the coconut that was just barely large enough for a monkey’s hand to fit into. Inside the coconut would be food for the monkey such as a banana or rice.

A monkey would come along, smell the food, and reach his hand into the coconut to grab it. Unwilling to let go of the food and unable to escape, the monkey would be trapped... and end up as Monkey Stew.

Too often we are trapped in monkey traps of our own making... left to simmer in our own stew.
 

pderousse

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If it were a silver necklace instead of a silver cable would you feel such pain, or is it only because you know something about the cable that you feel entitled to tell someone how to spend their money?
 

Anton D

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Maybe we could open some "Audio Auditing Centers" and help people advance through different levels of audio scienceology until they become clear.

We could recruit celebrities to be the exemplars of the power of the process.

Celebrity endorser: :cool:
 

DonR

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Maybe we could open some "Audio Auditing Centers" and help people advance through different levels of audio scienceology until they become clear.

We could recruit celebrities to be the exemplars of the power of the process.

Celebrity endorser: :cool:
Your Richie levels are OK but your McGowans are off the scale!
 

Anton D

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Your Richie levels are OK but your McGowans are off the scale!
The McGowan thing is interesting.

He makes loads of real world stuff, seems to make things of good quality. (Price whiners gonna price whine.) But, he makes one "snake oil" product and that brings out the audio acolytes with pitchforks and torches.

It reminds me of an old joke about nicknames and goats! :D

We are a strict cult, we are. (I say that as a fellow audio gear aficionado.)
 

DonR

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The McGowan thing is interesting.

He makes loads of real world stuff, seems to make things of good quality. (Price whiners gonna price whine.) But, he makes one "snake oil" product and that brings out the audio acolytes with pitchforks and torches.

It reminds me of an old joke about nicknames and goats! :D

We are a strict cult, we are. (I say that as a fellow audio gear aficionado.)
He has more than one snake oil product or product with snake oil claims. I2S comes to mind. Some of his worst videos are dripping in snake oil and downright falsehoods.
 
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