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The "other" German Speaker Manufacturers (Canton, Magnat, Heco, Quadral, ...) - Where do they stand?

BrokenEnglishGuy

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Stereoplay gives better measurements and if we look at these, are kind of understable in term of bass ext
R7:
Untere Grenzfreq. −3/−6 dB 60/37 Hz
7K:
Untere Grenzfreq. -3/-6 dB 52/43 Hz

If you want serious scores the unique scores we need to wait for Klippel measurements from Erin or Amir.., the R series have a lot of good measurements


The r7 extend lower but the canton have more muscle in sub bass, it's understable.. ( but 30hz F3!? come on stereo.de ), but the R series still have super low distortion and super nice directivity..


imho, these Canton are much like Revels, but Revels have low distortion like Kefs..
revel_performa3_f206_3.jpg
Reference_8k_schwarz_hg_2018diOxqOCi95KWS_600x600.jpg
 

Crosstalk

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Stereoplay gives better measurements and if we look at these, are kind of understable in term of bass ext
R7:
Untere Grenzfreq. −3/−6 dB 60/37 Hz
7K:
Untere Grenzfreq. -3/-6 dB 52/43 Hz

If you want serious scores the unique scores we need to wait for Klippel measurements from Erin or Amir.., the R series have a lot of good measurements


The r7 extend lower but the canton have more muscle in sub bass, it's understable.. ( but 30hz F3!? come on stereo.de ), but the R series still have super low distortion and super nice directivity..


imho, these Canton are much like Revels, but Revels have low distortion like Kefs..
revel_performa3_f206_3.jpg
Reference_8k_schwarz_hg_2018diOxqOCi95KWS_600x600.jpg
How can canton have more muscle in subbass if it doesnt extend well upto 37 hz . Also, 8K and 7k are two different speakers, 8K is small like the R5 and 7 K is like r7. Stereo.de never reviewed 7K. If they ever reviewed they would have just given a score of 83 or 82 as they rated KEF r11 at 82 and 8K at 81. But looks like Canton changed the driver aesthetics sligthly ffrom the time they were measured by the magazines including the stereophile. The new ones do not have screw holes like the 7k in stereophile and all other reviews. But it doesnt change anything imo other than cleaner aesthetics.

Also no directivity measuremets anywhere unlike Revel. Revels do not have coaxials so its again nothing special lunlike KEF
 
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Trell

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while Stereode claim Reference 9k F3 at 31hz, wow !!! a bookshelf who plays like a subwoofer.. but their towers cannot play as their bookshelf? lol
These measurementes are low quality, at 3khz stereode claim 0.1% of distortion Canton 9k, which is fake like their sub bass output. The distortion at [email protected] it's about 1,2-1,5%.

Edit: Removed. I messed up the distortion calculation.
 
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BrokenEnglishGuy

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Eyeballing the measurement you posted the distortion at [email protected] is less than -60dB, so less than 0.1%, and [email protected] is even better. In any case, far from your claimed 1.2-1.5% at [email protected]

I'm using the following calculator for this:

hmmm, you are using the tool incorrectly
I asked a time ago to hardisj how to read these graphs properly

1644278700169.png


So, 100dB on average
distortion at 3khz 65dB => -40dB => 1%
Thanks hardisj
1644279263511.png


index.php
 

thewas

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The approximately 1% mid distortion problem at higher levels wouldn't be a big issue if it would be 2nd harmonic, but unfortunately it seems it is not, here in the example of their A35 model which uses their top ceramic drivers from Reference (tweeter) and Vento (mid and woofers):

lautsprecher_stereo_canton_a_35_bild_1543412257.jpg

source: https://www.hifitest.de/test/lautsprecher-stereo/canton-a-35-17027

which is a shame as one of their smallest (!) bookshelf loudspeakers in 1979 (!!) does better in that regard (!!!):

_canton_gle_50_bild_1643713721.jpg

source: https://www.hifitest.de/test/vintage-hifi/canton-gle-50-bj-1979-vintage-21239
 
OP
Gurkerl

Gurkerl

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all cantons below this range has the same problem. This was their top most floorstanders below their Reference series until recently.

From the response I think they are using the exact same crossover until Reference 1 K between midrange and tweeter, or their ceramic tweeter design is flawed totally. For less (see the sticker price of Canton here !!!!! ) buy the KEF or ELAC or something else get done with it.


BUT SEE THE HYPOCRISY IN STEREOPLAYS PREFERENCE RATING; They know the Canton is worse from measurements but they still rate it high for normal people who do not understand the meaurement.
View attachment 184936View attachment 184937
Well, Canton is from Germany so it's not rare that german magazines put these german speaker very well, Whathifi always like Kef speakers

But measurements speak for themself, for example here you can clearly see:
F3 48HZ
F6 42HZ
View attachment 184958

while Stereode claim Reference 9k F3 at 31hz, wow !!! a bookshelf who plays like a subwoofer.. but their towers cannot play as their bookshelf? lol
These measurementes are low quality, at 3khz stereode claim 0.1% of distortion Canton 9k, which is fake like their sub bass output. The distortion at [email protected] it's about 1,2-1,5%.
View attachment 184959

If we look another review from stereode, Canton reference 8k.
The floorstanding have less sub bass? also the distortion at 3khz it's 0.3% vs 0,1% from Reference 9k.

View attachment 184964

The r11 have 82% vs canton 8k 81%
View attachment 184966




In stereoplay, way better measurements than stereode
Kef r7 score 3200 euros:
View attachment 184971
Canton 7k 5200 euros:
View attachment 184972
60 vs 61, maybe the R11 have 61 of score because the r11 have a little bit of more sub bass than r7.

The approximately 1% mid distortion problem at higher levels wouldn't be a big issue if it would be 2nd harmonic, but unfortunately it seems it is not, here in the example of their A35 model which uses their top ceramic drivers from Reference (tweeter) and Vento (mid and woofers):

lautsprecher_stereo_canton_a_35_bild_1543412257.jpg

source: https://www.hifitest.de/test/lautsprecher-stereo/canton-a-35-17027

which is a shame as one of their smallest (!) bookshelf loudspeakers in 1979 (!!) does better in that regard (!!!):

_canton_gle_50_bild_1643713721.jpg

source: https://www.hifitest.de/test/vintage-hifi/canton-gle-50-bj-1979-vintage-21239
I agree that - ideally - that distortion rise in the 3khz region shouldn't be there, but let's look at it from a more practical standpoint: in the stereoplay measurements the distortion peak was measured at 100db. In the region where our hearing is most sensitive, that is loud. Do you believe that this amount of distortion really would be audible at that volume? Or rather, are you going to listen that loud to even get to that spike?

Regarding the comparison between the Vento 896.2 and the R7, I don't think it's that easy to categorically call one speaker better than the other for all circumstances. As always it's a matter of your needs/preferences and what tradeoffs you're willing to take: slightly higher max spl and slightly better bass extension? Canton Vento. Better directivity and arguably flatter response? Kef R7.
For my purposes, the Kef would be the better choice.
Factoring in price however, things get more complicated again. In central Europe the Vento can be found for 1300€ each, the R7 for 1600€ each. If both can be had for the same price, I would probably lean towards the Kef (purely based on data - I would let a listening test be the deciding factor, where I give in to all biases because who the hell cares), but at a 600€ difference I am not sure it would be worth it.
 

Crosstalk

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I agree that - ideally - that distortion rise in the 3khz region shouldn't be there, but let's look at it from a more practical standpoint: in the stereoplay measurements the distortion peak was measured at 100db. In the region where our hearing is most sensitive, that is loud. Do you believe that this amount of distortion really would be audible at that volume? Or rather, are you going to listen that loud to even get to that spike?

Regarding the comparison between the Vento 896.2 and the R7, I don't think it's that easy to categorically call one speaker better than the other for all circumstances. As always it's a matter of your needs/preferences and what tradeoffs you're willing to take: slightly higher max spl and slightly better bass extension? Canton Vento. Better directivity and arguably flatter response? Kef R7.
For my purposes, the Kef would be the better choice.
Factoring in price however, things get more complicated again. In central Europe the Vento can be found for 1300€ each, the R7 for 1600€ each. If both can be had for the same price, I would probably lean towards the Kef (purely based on data - I would let a listening test be the deciding factor, where I give in to all biases because who the hell cares), but at a 600€ difference I am not sure it would be worth it.
Music is dynamic and some times it has dynamic peaks up to 12 db like broken mentioned in another thread. So, even if you are listening at 90db, which these instruments hit they will distort. Also, vento doesn’t have extension better than r7. R7 has everything vento offers and more. If you go to a store in Germany and ask for best price, they always give it below sticker price. The last time I checked the r11 was 3500 at the lowest and r7 was 2200 ag their lowest rate. That was in December when the promotions were going on. But if you call many stores they still give these discounts. At 2200€ to 2500€ nothing beats r7. Apparently it outclasses even the top of the line vento.

At lower volume r7 has everything vento has plus better directivity and coherence due to coaxials. At higher volumes all these pluses are still there and on the top no distortion. So, who is the winner ? Easily kef r series over all speakers in their respective price classes.
 

Klonatans

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Talking about KEF, so beloved here, I had R500 for nine years working in my main system. Fine speakers, nothing much to blame apart from treble extension a bit lacking to my taste (compared to ELAC with AMT Heil tweeter) and unglued decorative rings around drivers when I bought them brand new (speaking about KEF build quality). For some reason I have never been in love with R500 like I was with ELAC FS 247, Audio Physic Tempo IV (another fabulous German speaker brand) or little active Scansonic M5 BLT standmounts.
 

Crosstalk

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Talking about KEF, so beloved here, I had R500 for nine years working in my main system. Fine speakers, nothing much to blame apart from treble extension a bit lacking to my taste (compared to ELAC with AMT Heil tweeter) and unglued decorative rings around drivers when I bought them brand new (speaking about KEF build quality). For some reason I have never been in love with R500 like I was with ELAC FS 247, Audio Physic Tempo IV (another fabulous German speaker brand) or little active Scansonic M5 BLT standmounts.
R500 is nothing special. Kefs golden speakers are r3, r7, r11. Kef fixed all flaws with the R series from 2018. Elac is hyped up treble with AMT. You can increase treble on R series and still get same feel as distortion is extremely low.

Audio physic is very expensive but good performance but problem is it’s not available everywhere. Also, no coaxial is the biggest thing missing in all these speakers. Coaxial has more coherence
 

Klonatans

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I am surprised to read about distortion issues in Canton speakers. At 280€ nothing beats a pair of well kept second hand Canton Ergo 670 DC I bought recently for my secondary system. Uncoloured monitor kind of sound signature with clean dry bass, no cabinet rattling. I also cannot remember any unwelcome resonances in my first proper hi-fi speakers Canton Karat 770 DC fifteen years ago.
 

Crosstalk

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6A7AB01B-160A-42E9-BF2C-9236AEDF6AAE.jpeg
Talking about KEF, so beloved here, I had R500 for nine years working in my main system. Fine speakers, nothing much to blame apart from treble extension a bit lacking to my taste (compared to ELAC with AMT Heil tweeter) and unglued decorative rings around drivers when I bought them brand new (speaking about KEF build quality). For some reason I have never been in love with R500 like I was with ELAC FS 247, Audio Physic Tempo IV (another fabulous German speaker brand) or little active Scansonic M5 BLT standmounts.
That’s from tempo Vi. Not flat, also distortion in mid highs.
 

Crosstalk

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I am surprised to read about distortion issues in Canton speakers. At 280€ nothing beats a pair of well kept second hand Canton Ergo 670 DC I bought recently for my secondary system. Uncoloured monitor kind of sound signature with clean dry bass, no cabinet rattling. I also cannot remember any unwelcome resonances in my first proper hi-fi speakers Canton Karat 770 DC fifteen years ago.
Second hand prices should not be considered as it varies from place to place depending on how many of them were sold back then.

Also no measurements available so we don’t know if it had distortions or not.
 

Crosstalk

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I am surprised to read about distortion issues in Canton speakers. At 280€ nothing beats a pair of well kept second hand Canton Ergo 670 DC I bought recently for my secondary system. Uncoloured monitor kind of sound signature with clean dry bass, no cabinet rattling. I also cannot remember any unwelcome resonances in my first proper hi-fi speakers Canton Karat 770 DC fifteen years ago.
My favorite german brands from 90s are I.Q, Arcus, Sonics, Sony es series and canton ergos. If we can pick up them under 300 bucks used they are all good. But when it comes to new speakers costing 1000s of euros, we need to buy something which is relatively flawless for the years to come. Also, negatives from internet affect sales at the point of upgrade in a very bad way.
 

Klonatans

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R500 is nothing special. Kefs golden speakers are r3, r7, r11. Kef fixed all flaws with the R series from 2018. Elac is hyped up treble with AMT. You can increase treble on R series and still get same feel as distortion is extremely low.

Audio physic is very expensive but good performance but problem is it’s not available everywhere. Also, no coaxial is the biggest thing missing in all these speakers. Coaxial has more coherence
Elac AMT tweeter is superbly detailed and clean without a hint of sibilance. Vertical dispersion can be an inherent issue with this kind of tweeter however it's possible to avoid it by carefully choosing one's listening position.

Audio Physic speakers are costly indeed but buying second hand a yesteryear model is always an option. If speakers are not extremely old and don't have visible mechanical damage and if the seller is ok to let you try the speakers before you buy, I would say you are pretty safe.
 

Crosstalk

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Elac AMT tweeter is superbly detailed and clean without a hint of sibilance. Vertical dispersion can be an inherent issue with this kind of tweeter however it's possible to avoid it by carefully choosing one's listening position.

Audio Physic speakers are costly indeed but buying second hand a yesteryear model is always an option. If speakers are not extremely old and don't have visible mechanical damage and if the seller is ok to let you try the speakers before you buy, I would say you are pretty safe.
If two tweeters are having same measurement they are going to sound the same. If you match the freq resp of elac on kef r series it will simply sound like elac
 

Klonatans

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If two tweeters are having same measurement they are going to sound the same. If you match the freq resp of elac on kef r series it will simply sound like elac
Unfortunately I haven't heard the new R series as all the hi-fi shows are recently cancelled. What I can say of my own experience is that the Elac AMT sounds considerably more extended than the tweeter in previous generation R series. I have no doubts that the R7 are excellent speakers, perhaps with some DNA of the marvelous KEF The Reference 5 that I remember from the last British Hi-Fi show in Ascot back in 2019.
 
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