• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

The online coffee/espresso culture mirrors the subjectivist audio crowd.

Adi777

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 14, 2022
Messages
689
Likes
458
Obsessive behavior = the whole ceremony of preparing coffee? If they do, they must be enjoying it, period.
 

SSS

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2023
Messages
311
Likes
193
Location
Germany
Since I have some italian restaurants around in nearby villages I know very good espresso from these expensive machines. First, it is the coffee brand and quality level, second, fresh grinded with a dedicated grinder, right water temperature, pressure and flow time. It can be done at home, but it is expensive. In total it will cost around 2k EURO. We thought to do it but decided to buy a swiss Jura espresso/coffee machine. This is a lot easier to use and with good italian coffee like Mokambo d'oro the taste is almost near to the taste you get in the restaurants. But if it is a hobby and one likes to experiment, I can recommend the hi-price equipment for home usage.
 

computer-audiophile

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2022
Messages
2,565
Likes
2,879
Location
Germany
I switched from a larger portafilter machine for convenience to the Nespresso system and have sworn off this cult. Simply so that it is faster for an espresso in between. With the large machines, it always takes a while for all the metal parts etc. to heat up and that also consumes a lot of electricity. Sometimes you only make one or two cups.

The biggest flop was once a high-end espresso machine from Miele that I had in my former office to impress my customers, which was constantly broken and difficult to clean.

In the morning I drink filter coffee brewed the old-fashioned way, the way my grandmother used to make it, and in the afternoon I have tea.
 

majingotan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Messages
1,510
Likes
1,781
Location
Laguna, Philippines
Sifting the grounds. :D

You’re not even allowed to do that on a barista competition. It would be deemed a technical deduction
 

computer-audiophile

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2022
Messages
2,565
Likes
2,879
Location
Germany
With Italian coffee machines there is also a real retro cult like for example with tube amplifiers. I once took this photo in Liberec in the Czech Republic in a small bar of young people. The classic little Faema E61 original caught my eye right away.

lib.jpg
 
Last edited:

holla

Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2022
Messages
25
Likes
21
I meant to say, there is very little science involved in espresso, it seems.

Very little but not zero. See for example this article: https://www.baristamagazine.com/professor-chris-hendon-simplifies-coffee-with-science/

The cafe where this chemist got interested in coffee is my regular haunt and it has been really interesting to talk to the owner about their findings on water chemistry and the effect of grind on coffee extraction. Of course we are still far from knowing what makes the "best" coffee -- for one thing, how would that be defined? -- but at least some people are trying to be rational and methodical about it.
 

dfuller

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 26, 2020
Messages
3,337
Likes
5,052
Very little but not zero. See for example this article: https://www.baristamagazine.com/professor-chris-hendon-simplifies-coffee-with-science/

The cafe where this chemist got interested in coffee is my regular haunt and it has been really interesting to talk to the owner about their findings on water chemistry and the effect of grind on coffee extraction. Of course we are still far from knowing what makes the "best" coffee -- for one thing, how would that be defined? -- but at least some people are trying to be rational and methodical about it.
Yeah, it's entirely subjective and even the stuff that isn't is monstrously more complex than it's given credit for. Grind distribution, grind shape, how many modal peaks there are (Unimodal vs bi/trimodal)... basket flow characteristics... you get the idea.
 

Timmeon

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2022
Messages
91
Likes
228
Location
New York
Very little but not zero. See for example this article: https://www.baristamagazine.com/professor-chris-hendon-simplifies-coffee-with-science/

The cafe where this chemist got interested in coffee is my regular haunt and it has been really interesting to talk to the owner about their findings on water chemistry and the effect of grind on coffee extraction. Of course we are still far from knowing what makes the "best" coffee -- for one thing, how would that be defined? -- but at least some people are trying to be rational and methodical about it.
Absolutely, and I wonder if we could boil it down to using different methods and parameters (including water as in the article you shared) and measuring compounds extracted that contribute to acidity and balance those with compounds that contribute to body, etc. Obviously complicated (beyond my pay scale) but perhaps in that balance is a semi-sweet and tasty shot of espresso that would appeal to most people. Kind of like the Harman curve for coffee. With some blind testing, you could potentially inch closer and closer to the 'best' cup of coffee or espresso.
 

notsodeadlizard

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2023
Messages
403
Likes
362
So, lately I've been venturing into the world of espresso, and I see no reason to overspend, much like how I approach my hifi hobby.

As any interest takes hold, I usually check out youtube to gain some insight into the whole thing, but I'm noticing a trend that leaves me frustrated.

Ask any espresso snob on social media, and you'll get the same "you need to spend at least $200 on a grinder" or "Any espresso machine under $1000 is garbage". Oh, don't forget to spend $150 on a fancy brass and stainless tamper when your included plastic tamper $1.50 does the EXACT same thing with NO ACTUAL BENEFIT.

So far, I've got a Delonghi Stilosa, a cheap-o conical burr hand grinder, and coffee. I'm still trying to get the crema to be more substantial like those nespresso's, but I don't want to go down that wasteful route. I've read a lot of it comes down to a good espresso roasted bean and a nice fine grind.

What are your thoughts on the snobbery? Have you noticed it?

Are you into espresso? What gear have you gotten? Thoughts on the fully automatic units?
I really love coffee, I brew it in different ways (Turkish, French press, geyser coffee maker, 15 atmospheres carob coffee maker), I communicate with other coffee lovers and even coffee psychos, and have never come across what you wrote about.
Never.
If you saw this somewhere, it was most likely not a "coffeephile", but an aggressive stupid seller of something.
 

holla

Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2022
Messages
25
Likes
21
Absolutely, and I wonder if we could boil it down to using different methods and parameters (including water as in the article you shared) and measuring compounds extracted that contribute to acidity and balance those with compounds that contribute to body, etc. Obviously complicated (beyond my pay scale) but perhaps in that balance is a semi-sweet and tasty shot of espresso that would appeal to most people. Kind of like the Harman curve for coffee. With some blind testing, you could potentially inch closer and closer to the 'best' cup of coffee or espresso.

I am sure that is the kind of thing that Hendon and his collaborators would like to do. So far though, they do not seem to be doing that. Here's a quote from one of the papers, "Systematically Improving Espresso: Insights from Mathematical Modeling and Experiment": https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590238519304102

In principle, it is preferable to make objective statements about the flavor of foodstuffs from knowledge of their molecular components. This poses problems for coffee because there are ~2,000 different compounds extracted from the grounds during brewing. In practice, we are limited to more easily measurable descriptors. The coffee industry uses extraction yield (EY), a ratio of solvated coffee mass to the mass of dry coffee used to produce the beverage, to assess extraction. EY is calculated by first measuring the refractive index, a property that depends on temperature. While a refractive index measurement cannot be used to characterize the beverage composition (i.e., it cannot be used to make qualitative statements about chemical composition; the refractive response is highly molecule specific), it has been shown to accurately correlate with extracted mass.
So it seems they are so far using just the EY metric as a proxy for the entire make-up of the final cup of coffee, which is obviously a huge oversimplification (unless further research shows that it isn't, I guess.)
 

LightninBoy

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
712
Likes
1,458
Location
St. Paul, MN
Ask any espresso snob on social media, and you'll get the same "you need to spend at least $200 on a grinder" or "Any espresso machine under $1000 is garbage". Oh, don't forget to spend $150 on a fancy brass and stainless tamper when your included plastic tamper $1.50 does the EXACT same thing with NO ACTUAL BENEFIT.

You might say those espresso snob claims are ... ungrounded. Such snobbery really ... grinds me.

Sorry those puns are really pour.
 

DVDdoug

Major Contributor
Joined
May 27, 2021
Messages
2,918
Likes
3,831
Wine connoisseurs believe in blind tasting.
 

Adi777

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 14, 2022
Messages
689
Likes
458
Hmm, I readed this this article, and don't see nothing special there, but this:
“We’re just crazy, passionate nerds.”
That's what's fantastic.
 

thecheapseats

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Feb 22, 2023
Messages
727
Likes
776
Location
Los Angeles refugee
a hand grinder and an hourglass manual espresso pot are perfectly adequate... expensive mills have their place as well as the pro semi-auto machines (I've used gaggia macines for thirty+ years)... just be aware that with a quality semi-auto machine you WILL need to maintain them and rebuild them occasionally - not trivial - but if you have reasonable 'fix-it' skills, it's doable...
 

Axo1989

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 9, 2022
Messages
2,805
Likes
2,806
Location
Sydney
So, lately I've been venturing into the world of espresso, and I see no reason to overspend, much like how I approach my hifi hobby.

As any interest takes hold, I usually check out youtube to gain some insight into the whole thing, but I'm noticing a trend that leaves me frustrated.

Ask any espresso snob on social media, and you'll get the same "you need to spend at least $200 on a grinder" or "Any espresso machine under $1000 is garbage". Oh, don't forget to spend $150 on a fancy brass and stainless tamper when your included plastic tamper $1.50 does the EXACT same thing with NO ACTUAL BENEFIT.

So far, I've got a Delonghi Stilosa, a cheap-o conical burr hand grinder, and coffee. I'm still trying to get the crema to be more substantial like those nespresso's, but I don't want to go down that wasteful route. I've read a lot of it comes down to a good espresso roasted bean and a nice fine grind.

What are your thoughts on the snobbery? Have you noticed it?

Are you into espresso? What gear have you gotten? Thoughts on the fully automatic units?

As the saying goes, argumentum ad lazarum never dies. :)
 

r042wal

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 20, 2022
Messages
188
Likes
199
Location
Ontario (Canada)
I have a Rancilio Sylvia machine and a Rancilio Rocky burr. I bought them as a combo. Consistent water temperature is important and so is the consistency of the grind. I've got my espresso / cappuccino down to an art and after much trial and error, it is just the way I like it. I added a PID to my machine with a solid state relay so the water temperature is always the same.

Parts are available for my machine and I have done my own servicing. It's an expensive 'entry level' machine and not something I would want to throw out after 5 years so I'm glad I can service it.

I only make espresso / cappuccino for myself. No snobbery here. I do however, get a kick out of neck beards on YouTube and at Starbucks. I don't put a barista in the same league as engineers but I find the neck beards have a pretty high opinion of how they apply their artistry making espresso.

We have a national grocer in Canada and they have their own house brand of espresso beans. I've bought the expensive and the boutique beans from a variety of roasters but I'm quite happy with the taste and price of what I use today.
 

Waxx

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2021
Messages
1,931
Likes
7,688
Location
Wodecq, Hainaut, Belgium
I do see a difference in coffee culture in the US and Europe. In Europe coffee is a comodity, where most if not all at least have a simple coffee machine and coffee is daily drink that we make at home. In offices you have a coffee automates, but many bring their own homemade coffee in thermoscans still, even made with simple coffee machine and mills. My grandparents who were not rich or fancy at all (one was a farmer and weaver, the other a carpenter) all made coffee at home with a simple cheap offee machine and from roasted beans they milled themselves manaully. And so did my parents. The device below is like what my parents and grandparents used when i was a kid. It's an semi-automated pour-on system from Philips and a classic manual mill.

il_fullxfull.4549013469_b6j9.jpg

A Philips coffee machine
1000_F_69170129_R6uQa6DlgE225eG6rnx7kQqPEhpcmBy4.jpg

a simple mill that was common untill the 1990's at least

In the US most drink starbucks "coffee" or similar and if they make coffee at home, it's mostly with a nespresso machine (or something similar) with capsules. The manual home making coffee is something for hipsters only almost, and they want everything fancy and special pretend it's an art. In Europe this doesn't happen, even with fancy machines it's still a comodity and most actually still do it the way i describe above with modern variations of those devices. Local roasters are also not that expensive, prices raised a bit with the crisis due to the war, but a kilogram (2.2 pound) of high quality roast beans are still only 20 to 25€ mostly, only a few € more expensive than mainstream brands sold in supermarkets. Some hipsters stores (where they sell mostly the same coffee from local roasters, but in a fancy package) asks more, but everythign is more expensive there. Capsule coffe systems like nesspresso are getting more popular altough, mainly because it's less time consuming. Idem with shops like starbucks, altough most think their drinks are trash (like the mcdo & co is seen as trash here).
 

antcollinet

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 4, 2021
Messages
7,408
Likes
12,291
Location
UK/Cheshire
That sounds about right with the local roaster. I've also heard to avoid pre-ground like cafe bustello like the plague.

I think it's potentially my inexperience showing, but I've found that when it comes to latte's, I really get no further enjoyment of a local coffee shop over my (prepare yourself) Keurig cafe with the heated milk frother & reusable k-cup baskets (I don't buy the disposable pods). Though, I've really noticed that I can't quite match a plain espresso for crema. The delonghi's steam wand is incredibly frustrating though, so I could maybe see spending more for that.

Ok, maybe it is more of a hobby than I'm willing to admit.

I've seen that the ground consistency is very important, but maybe I'm not ready to go down the route of doing all of that sifting and weighing to perfect what I see as a good enough ground consistency and size.

In the end, I'm not sure if I'll be chasing the dragon quite yet for the quest for a perfect espresso, but I'm pretty happy with where I'm at for the cost.
Sifting and weighing is part of the bullshit. As is needle stirring etc. A good grind of the correct consistency for the beans and roast (and that can change as they age) and a hard tamp sorts all that stuff out.
 
Top Bottom