The next upgrade

[Lutyn87]

Hello

I wanted to ask what would you add to improve sound quality for music listening from Tidal?

Right now I have AVR Denon X3500, Kef R3 and REL HT1508. I would like to keep everything because i watch lots of movies and for this purpose it is perfect. I also like to run the speakers with 80Hz crossover because when I run them full range the bass is to much. I think it's because of the small room size (4x3m). The room itself is treated with absorbers on the walls and roof. What would you implement if anything to have better sound for listening? A DAC or maybe a streamer od something else?

Thank you in advance.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Welcome to ASR.

Does your Denon power the Kef R3, and doesn't it allow you to implement a crossover at 80 or 100 hz? If so I don't think you need to do anything. A good streamer maybe if you want the convenience of that. I'll let others suggest a good one of those.

Audio Electronics Review and Measurements Index

Master table and index of all audio equipment reviews and measurements.

www.audiosciencereview.com

Here is a review index. Under type select Streamer or Streamer/player and you can see which models Amir has tested for us here on ASR.

 

[RickSanchez]

I agree with @Blumlein 88 : I don't think you need to add anything to your setup. The X350H comes with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 would should do a solid job with integrating your speakers and managing room EQ.

Are you using HEOS to stream TIDAL?

 

[Lutyn87]

Welcome to ASR.

Does your Denon power the Kef R3, and doesn't it allow you to implement a crossover at 80 or 100 hz? If so I don't think you need to do anything. A good streamer maybe if you want the convenience of that. I'll let others suggest a good one of those.

Audio Electronics Review and Measurements Index

Master table and index of all audio equipment reviews and measurements.

www.audiosciencereview.com

Here is a review index. Under type select Streamer or Streamer/player and you can see which models Amir has tested for us here on ASR.

Yes i have set my AvR to 80Hz. But when I have a streamer or Hifi DAC that goes in my AVR will it be a noticeable upgrade compared to Heos(Tidal) which I am using right now on my Denon?

 

[Lutyn87]

I agree with @Blumlein 88 : I don't think you need to add anything to your setup. The X350H comes with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 would should do a solid job with integrating your speakers and managing room EQ.

Are you using HEOS to stream TIDAL?

Yeah I am using Heos to stream Tidal and I don't use XT32 because the sound is to flat for my taste. I only use the Crossover (80Hz) on the AVR everything else is off. Just wanted to know if a HiFi streamer or DAC Will improve something when it's connected to the AVR.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Yeah I am using Heos to stream Tidal and I don't use XT32 because the sound is to flat for my taste. I only use the Crossover (80Hz) on the AVR everything else is off. Just wanted to know if a HiFi streamer or DAC Will improve something when it's connected to the AVR.

I would think the AVR will be a performance bottleneck for basic distortion and noise. So unless you just want the convenience or some features of operating a dedicated streamer I'm not sure you'd gain anything.

 

[Putter]

Yeah I am using Heos to stream Tidal and I don't use XT32 because the sound is to flat for my taste. I only use the Crossover (80Hz) on the AVR everything else is off. Just wanted to know if a HiFi streamer or DAC Will improve something when it's connected to the AVR.

A couple of things come to mind. There's an app for Audyssey that will allow you to adjust it to only room dependent frequencies (<500 hz) and get rid of the midrange dip built into the standard curve. If you haven't tried it, I would also suggest experimenting with various setting of the Dynamic Eq which can add a healthy bottom end.

 

[warnerwh]

Yeah I am using Heos to stream Tidal and I don't use XT32 because the sound is to flat for my taste. I only use the Crossover (80Hz) on the AVR everything else is off. Just wanted to know if a HiFi streamer or DAC Will improve something when it's connected to the AVR.

The Audyssey app changes everything. Many people don't like flat and if it weren't for the app I wouldn't use Audyssey either. For only 20 dollars it is a bargain. It's very adjustable especially if you add ratbuddyssey: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/an...r-tweaking-audyssey-multeq-app-files.3006886/ however it's not necessary.

 

[JSmith]

What would you implement if anything to have better sound for listening?

A CD player and CD's instead of Tidal... oh and a stereo amp for 2 channel listening.


JSmith

 

[Lutyn87]

I would think the AVR will be a performance bottleneck for basic distortion and noise. So unless you just want the convenience or some features of operating a dedicated streamer I'm not sure you'd gain anything.

I see. The reason why I'm holding to my AVR is just because of the crossover function. I've tested an integrated amp (Roksan Attessa Streamer) and in comparison to the Denon the overall sound was much better. The problem is that with some songs the bass was too boomy and loud because the R3's were getting full range. Is out there some device that could solve this issue? Or in another words. If I want to stream hifi music from Tidal and have a crossover function what devices will I need?

 

[Lutyn87]

A CD player and CD's instead of Tidal... oh and a stereo amp for 2 channel listening.


JSmith

Hi and thank you for your input but what if I want to listen in 2.1 with crossover set to 80Hz and use a hifi streamer or DAC connected to notebook? How would you solve this?

Lukas

 

[EdTice]

I see. The reason why I'm holding to my AVR is just because of the crossover function. I've tested an integrated amp (Roksan Attessa Streamer) and in comparison to the Denon the overall sound was much better. The problem is that with some songs the bass was too boomy and loud because the R3's were getting full range. Is out there some device that could solve this issue? Or in another words. If I want to stream hifi music from Tidal and have a crossover function what devices will I need?

The setup you have right now is awfully good. As others have said, other than proper room correction there really isn't much you can do in terms of equipment without big upgrades. Look at the reviews here. The DAC implementation in the X3500H is weak. You will get much better performance (for a lot of money) if you can upgrade to an X3600 or X3700. Unfortunately that's a $1000-$1500 outlay right now.

I've answered this a hundred times lately but here goes again. You don't need digital bass management. Set the crossover point on your sub to the -3dB of your mains and the bass won't be too loud. REL specifically recommends using a high-pass filter with your particular sub! If it's "boomy," you can place your mains better. Or you need to use the included port plugs (which is why they are included!) I don't own R3s but even with 80Hz crossover, I've needed to use port plugs in speakers that are near walls (as they often are in home theater setups)

That being said, digital bass management sure is convenient and being able to move the crossover to 80hz is really nice in terms of getting more aesthetic speaker placement and taking load off of the amplifier and it's strongly my preference as well so I'm sympathetic to your desires.

If you do go to the X3600H or X3700H, the next improvement would be to disconnect the amplifier section for L/R (or with the 3700H you can use at a prepro only). However, look at the amplifier review index here. To get an amplifier section that outperforms whats in the X3600H or X3700H for two channels you are probably going to be spending a lot more. I use the internal amps on an X3600H and I'm more than satisfied. To get an "ugprade" you would be looking at something like the NAD M27 which would set you back another 4k.

So you should either plan for $6k in upgrades or decide that you're pretty happy with what you have! I mean if you can't fully enjoy your music with that setup, maybe find better music!

 

[Lutyn87]

The setup you have right now is awfully good. As others have said, other than proper room correction there really isn't much you can do in terms of equipment without big upgrades. Look at the reviews here. The DAC implementation in the X3500H is weak. You will get much better performance (for a lot of money) if you can upgrade to an X3600 or X3700. Unfortunately that's a $1000-$1500 outlay right now.

I've answered this a hundred times lately but here goes again. You don't need digital bass management. Set the crossover point on your sub to the -3dB of your mains and the bass won't be too loud. REL specifically recommends using a high-pass filter with your particular sub! If it's "boomy," you can place your mains better. Or you need to use the included port plugs (which is why they are included!) I don't own R3s but even with 80Hz crossover, I've needed to use port plugs in speakers that are near walls (as they often are in home theater setups)

That being said, digital bass management sure is convenient and being able to move the crossover to 80hz is really nice in terms of getting more aesthetic speaker placement and taking load off of the amplifier and it's strongly my preference as well so I'm sympathetic to your desires.

If you do go to the X3600H or X3700H, the next improvement would be to disconnect the amplifier section for L/R (or with the 3700H you can use at a prepro only). However, look at the amplifier review index here. To get an amplifier section that outperforms whats in the X3600H or X3700H for two channels you are probably going to be spending a lot more. I use the internal amps on an X3600H and I'm more than satisfied. To get an "ugprade" you would be looking at something like the NAD M27 which would set you back another 4k.

So you should either plan for $6k in upgrades or decide that you're pretty happy with what you have! I mean if you can't fully enjoy your music with that setup, maybe find better music!

Thank you for your exhausting reply. I am overall satisfied with my setup right now even if it doesn't look like it I was just thinking that maybe some streamer with crossover function like the NAD C700 (I found out today) would do the job better in terms of sound quality and streaming. Plus still be pretty good if not better for watching movies and gaming. So maybe the final question is. Would it be a noticeable (audible) upgrade going from Denon X3500h to something like the NAD C700?

 

[EdTice]

Thank you for your exhausting reply. I am overall satisfied with my setup right now even if it doesn't look like it I was just thinking that maybe some streamer with crossover function like the NAD C700 (I found out today) would do the job better in terms of sound quality and streaming. Plus still be pretty good if not better for watching movies and gaming. So maybe the final question is. Would it be a noticeable (audible) upgrade going from Denon X3500h to something like the NAD C700?

The NAD C700 hasn't been reviewed here. But assuming its the same power amp as the C368 (which many suspect) that has been reviewed here, it's not as much of an upgrade as going to the Denon X3600H or X3700H where you get nine full amp modules that all measure better than the two amp module in the C700 and cost about the same price. The C700 definitely will measure better than the X3500h but not sure if it will be audibly better.

It's not clear from the manual that the NAD C700 can do things like decode/downmix multi-channel sources even when fed from HDMI ARC. This means you'll be relying on your other devices to decode and downmix if you want to listen to movies. They may or may not such at it. If you go with the Denon, you don't have to worry about that. Also if you ever decide you want a center channel for your movies, there's a way to add it. The NAD C700 seems cool and I would consider it for somewhere like my bedroom where I don't have a TV and don't really want one. But if you are considering watching movies and you have an attached screen, an AVR is still probably a better choice. Also I can't find that the C700 has a preprocessor mode. So you cant disable the internal amps if you ever want to go with a better external amp. (That's well documented as problematic all over this site and I can't add anything to what's already been said)

With the KEF R3s you don't really need a center channel and might never want one so that's not a big concern. Maybe I'm biased from reading here too much but now that Denon has shown that AVRs can get a 100 SINAD out of the DAC coupled with an 88dB SINAD amplifier and offer amp disconnect, I'm just not willing to accept devices that can't get at least two out of three of these things right

 

[Lutyn87]

The NAD C700 hasn't been reviewed here. But assuming its the same power amp as the C368 (which many suspect) that has been reviewed here, it's not as much of an upgrade as going to the Denon X3600H or X3700H where you get nine full amp modules that all measure better than the two amp module in the C700 and cost about the same price. The C700 definitely will measure better than the X3500h but not sure if it will be audibly better.

It's not clear from the manual that the NAD C700 can do things like decode/downmix multi-channel sources even when fed from HDMI ARC. This means you'll be relying on your other devices to decode and downmix if you want to listen to movies. They may or may not such at it. If you go with the Denon, you don't have to worry about that. Also if you ever decide you want a center channel for your movies, there's a way to add it. The NAD C700 seems cool and I would consider it for somewhere like my bedroom where I don't have a TV and don't really want one. But if you are considering watching movies and you have an attached screen, an AVR is still probably a better choice. Also I can't find that the C700 has a preprocessor mode. So you cant disable the internal amps if you ever want to go with a better external amp. (That's well documented as problematic all over this site and I can't add anything to what's already been said)

With the KEF R3s you don't really need a center channel and might never want one so that's not a big concern. Maybe I'm biased from reading here too much but now that Denon has shown that AVRs can get a 100 SINAD out of the DAC coupled with an 88dB SINAD amplifier and offer amp disconnect, I'm just not willing to accept devices that can't get at least two out of three of these things right

Thanks again There is really no need for a center speaker in my small room. I've tested it. For downmixing I would use my UHD player Panasonic DP-UB820. I just thought that a dedicated 2-CH streamer like the NAD C700 would sound better than a multi-purpose AVR where the focus is set on more things. It seems that this case is closed

 

[EdTice]

Thanks again There is really no need for a center speaker in my small room. I've tested it. For downmixing I would use my UHD player Panasonic DP-UB820. I just thought that a dedicated 2-CH streamer like the NAD C700 would sound better than a multi-purpose AVR where the focus is set on more things. It seems that this case is closed

I would wait for others to comment before saying case closed. But the things that matter are the quality of the DAC and the quality of the amp and those can be measured! I have no doubt somebody *could* produce a 2.1 streamer that has lower component costs less than a comparable AVR with equal or better audio quality! Anybody who is making AVRs could just produce a version without all of the amp sections and sell it for a lower price. Again the C700 would be better than the X3500h for the reasons you mentioned. It's just not better than the X3600H or X3700H which cost about the same as the C700 and provide amplifier disconnect options! For a music only system a DAC + amplifier can be had for less than the upgraded AVR and you will get measurably better audio which you may or may not be able to hear. So it's something you could consider.

Very few DACs have HDMI connectivity and even less have digital bass management. With video sources you will have to manually deal with lipsync issues as well. And you'll have to handle multiple remote controls. Again some people don't care about those "convenience" features but its not something I would enjoy. Best to get opinions on that option from others.

 

[morpheusX]

You have an excellent system: the speakers are very good, as well as the subwoofer (although with a low price/performance ratio).
The Room correction isn't the best there is (Audyssey MultEQ XT32) but its very good, and should do a good job.

I wouldn't change anything for now, would maintain the Denon for a few years, and then change to a receiver with Dirac (or the best available Room correction for your price point).

If you have deep pockets and really want to spend some money, i would buy a Calibrated Mic (100$), learn REW, and try to understand if adding a second REL HT1508 would improve the overall response.

 

[EdTice]

You have an excellent system: the speakers are very good, as well as the subwoofer (although with a low price/performance ratio).
The Room correction isn't the best there is (Audyssey MultEQ XT32) but its very good, and should do a good job.

I wouldn't change anything for now, would maintain the Denon for a few years, and then change to a receiver with Dirac (or the best available Room correction for your price point).

If you have deep pockets and really want to spend some money, i would buy a Calibrated Mic (100$), learn REW, and try to understand if adding a second REL HT1508 would improve the overall response.

For the cost of another REL H1508, one could acquire a pair of SVS SB2000Pro and, I think, be much happier.

 

[morpheusX]

^^
I have the same opinion as you, if it was me, i would sell the REL and buy 2 PSA S18 IPAL

But i assume the OP don't want to go with this route, and would like to maintain his REL to have two identical subwoofers, thus my suggestion

 

[Skebet]

Hi there. I am a very happy NAD C700 owner and I'd like to correct the assertion/hypothesis in this thread that the C700 doesn't have pre-amp out.

In fact, the C700 does have analog RCA out, bypassing the internal power amplifier. I am using the C700 as a full streamer/preamp/screen, running into a Hegel H20 power amplifier and B&W 702 Signature and it excels in that role.

If you want a BluOS front-end, not only does the C700 have the screen that the BlueSound Node lacks, but also has a better DAC than the Node (ESS ES9010 vs TI PCM5242).

That all said, I also found that the C700's amplifier section was quite good. Not powerful enough for the 702s (hence the Hegel), but more than adequate for less demanding speakers. All in all, I've found the C700 an excellent product.