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The New King?

JohnYang1997

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Of course from a marketing point of view there's nothing wrong with it.
It's our own fault of the audiophile community, we're so easily manipulated and sensitive to numbers. Companies are banking on that and designing their marketing material around that.

Just look at the product page of any popular brand DAC. About every product page will have the DAC chip in a big font on top of the page..
Everyone (should) know that the chip alone doesn't mean anything yet people are lining up to buy this new DAC because now it has a AK4499 instead of the AK4497 in the older model.... The old model with the AK4497 was already completely transparent but now people claim that the background is blacker and the highs airier with this new AK4499 based model.. so tiresome.

I do understand the reasoning for this new model very well, as I said the group of which this device is targeted at is very sensitive to numbers and so it will work and it will sell.

Personally though I wish companies would focus less on the highest SINAD race, in which there is not much, if anything, to gain for the consumer anymore. Instead spend that time, money and effort in standing out in other ways like build quality, features or form factor. Things that are directly and tangible beneficial for the end consumer.

I know it will never happen as the current demographic has no problem spending 200+ more voor a DAC which scores 5 points higher SINAD but will not spend 100 more to get a DAC with better build quality or more features.

One can dream.. :)
How do you know manufacturers don't focus on 'build quality, features or form factor'? It's a matter of perception. You see measurements of audio performance here so you would assume that's what also manufacturers think/see every day. No, it's not. Not even 1/3 of the time. Weight, size, quality control of the chassis(we are in fact one of the strictest of the manufacturers in this regard), heat dissipation and cosmetic, aesthetic just to name a few. We are also pushing balanced dac to the lowest price possible. We are also making other things with balanced input for low price when the whole market still use rca only in the price range. Also in fact majority of the headphone amplifiers on the market don't have protection circuit. They don't even attempt to do so though we made one but failed. There are many things like these. I'm sure other manufacturers also have their own things.
Amir made big change in this industry. Although high price garbage isn't going anywhere, people are more likely to purchase better designed, better engineered products than before. It's good. It's great. People will always spend what they want on anything. In fact majority of people still buying the cheap ones. It's not like manufacturers only sell expensive stuff. If it's not for you get what's suitable for you. There's nothing wrong with it.
 

bennetng

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I have chosen 1kHz to be comparable to Amir Wolfx measurements from both D90 versions :)
Here are the measurements you suggested. That's only from D10s, mine E30 is not with me right now.
Your results are actually comparable to the ones published by Wolf and RAA.

RAA's results with 44.1k sample rate:
https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/dac/topping-d10s.php#rw41
muity.PNG


Wolf's results with 48k sample rate:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-new-king.21444/post-787262
FT.png


FTZoom.png


Your result:
D10S_21kHz_48at96_apodizing.png


The spikes with label 2 and 3 in your graph are harmonic distortion, and could be ADC related, so ignore them. The other spikes are all caused by inadequate filter attenuation as they are all correlated to the original tone but none of them are harmonics. The frequencies I mentioned triggered artifacts in region A and B. On the other hand an 1kHz tone always trigger C, any filter with reasonable steepness will have low artifacts in region C.

The A, B, C regions are proportional to sample rate, for 48k sample rate, A=27k, C=48k B=75k, for 44.1k sample rate, A=24.8k, C=44.1k, B=68.9k.

Not that I am nitpicking or worrying about anything when playing typical music instead of test signal, however, if people aim for the steepest filter within what a specific DAC chip can do, they should realize these are the prices to pay for, as well as the worst passband ripple among other ESS "fast" filters.
 
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Lupin

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How do you know manufacturers don't focus on 'build quality, features or form factor'?

I never said they don't.
I just said that those are areas in which one can make a difference and set them apart from the rest of the pack. It's not aimed personally at you, it's an opinion aimed at the market in general.

You see measurements of audio performance here so you would assume that's what also manufacturers think/see every day.

I don't assume anything.

Weight, size, quality control of the chassis(we are in fact one of the strictest of the manufacturers in this regard), heat dissipation and cosmetic, aesthetic just to name a few. We are also pushing balanced dac to the lowest price possible. We are also making other things with balanced input for low price when the whole market still use rca only in the price range. Also in fact majority of the headphone amplifiers on the market don't have protection circuit. They don't even attempt to do so though we made one but failed. There are many things like these. I'm sure other manufacturers also have their own things.

Nice marketing talk.
Al though I get the feeling you feel that I "attacked" you while I was just reacting to another person here posting a nonsense reply.
 

JohnYang1997

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I never said they don't.
I just said that those are areas in which one can make a difference and set them apart from the rest of the pack. It's not aimed personally at you, it's an opinion aimed at the market in general.



I don't assume anything.



Nice marketing talk.
Al though I get the feeling you feel that I "attacked" you while I was just reacting to another person here posting a nonsense reply.
I didn't feel attacked. But I very much understand the stand point of yours. So what I shared was from my perspective how it actually works. The perception is the biggest difference.
No this is not marketing talk. I don't feel attacked but when people say to me stuff like marketing it would inevitably make me mad and feel disrespected. I was simply sharing a different perspective.
 

jmos

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I am in the market for a new desktop dac. Was looking at the D70S, but now I am thinking of waiting on the D90SE. Do we know what the price is going to be on it yet? Also, is there a date yet when it will actually be available to purchase?
 

Koeitje

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I am in the market for a new desktop dac. Was looking at the D70S, but now I am thinking of waiting on the D90SE. Do we know what the price is going to be on it yet? Also, is there a date yet when it will actually be available to purchase?
Probably what the D90 costs + another 50-100$.
 

Wes

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How do you know manufacturers don't focus on 'build quality, features or form factor'? It's a matter of perception. You see measurements of audio performance here so you would assume that's what also manufacturers think/see every day. No, it's not. Not even 1/3 of the time. Weight, size, quality control of the chassis(we are in fact one of the strictest of the manufacturers in this regard), heat dissipation and cosmetic, aesthetic just to name a few. We are also pushing balanced dac to the lowest price possible. We are also making other things with balanced input for low price when the whole market still use rca only in the price range. Also in fact majority of the headphone amplifiers on the market don't have protection circuit. They don't even attempt to do so though we made one but failed. There are many things like these. I'm sure other manufacturers also have their own things.
Amir made big change in this industry. Although high price garbage isn't going anywhere, people are more likely to purchase better designed, better engineered products than before. It's good. It's great. People will always spend what they want on anything. In fact majority of people still buying the cheap ones. It's not like manufacturers only sell expensive stuff. If it's not for you get what's suitable for you. There's nothing wrong with it.

Thanks John, that's good to know. I'm not in the market for a DAC since I have two, but I am just curious as to what % of Topping's unit sales are made domestically in China as vs. exports to the US or Europe?
 

JohnYang1997

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Thanks John, that's good to know. I'm not in the market for a DAC since I have two, but I am just curious as to what % of Topping's unit sales are made domestically in China as vs. exports to the US or Europe?
15% i think. Probably lower.
 

Wes

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Well, I hope that increases and that living standards, especially in the interior, increase.
 

raif71

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Probably what the D90 costs + another 50-100$.
I was hoping at most around D90 price as the ESS chip is generally lower than the flagship AKM used in D90 even if the D90se has "extra features" compared with D90.
 

Lupin

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I am in the market for a new desktop dac. Was looking at the D70S, but now I am thinking of waiting on the D90SE. Do we know what the price is going to be on it yet? Also, is there a date yet when it will actually be available to purchase?
Which feature(s) of the D90SE are you interested in that the D70S doesn't offer?
 

jmos

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Which feature(s) of the D90SE are you interested in that the D70S doesn't offer?

Great question, and at first it wasn't even a thought. Then I read this from JohnYang1997 in another thread.

"From my point of view, D90se is planned and managed from every bit ground up. Every aspect of it is specifically designed that way. D70s was basically a trick that you get lower harmonics with lower output level. I'd recommend D90se all day every day. "

Now I get that he would want to promote his products. But here he is comparing 2 of his own products. I am sure I could not tell the difference in a blind test. But that comment got me thinking. If I am going to make a significant investment ($650-$850) in a DAC. And I am sold on buying Topping. If the price between these 2 is relatively close. And the D90SE will be available to purchase in the next week or so. Then why not go with their latest and greatest DAC? This is actually how I initially chose the D70S, because it was newer than the D90 non SE.

So in the end, Too much reading led to too much indecision. I have been looking at the APOS site for 2 weeks now. Putting an A90 and D70S in my cart but never completing the purchase. The more I read, the more I go back and forth on what my criteria should be on choosing what to purchase. I suffer from analysis paralysis when making big purchases. Not just on audio gear, but guitar gear, cars, tv's really anything and everything.
 

JohnYang1997

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Great question, and at first it wasn't even a thought. Then I read this from JohnYang1997 in another thread.

"From my point of view, D90se is planned and managed from every bit ground up. Every aspect of it is specifically designed that way. D70s was basically a trick that you get lower harmonics with lower output level. I'd recommend D90se all day every day. "

Now I get that he would want to promote his products. But here he is comparing 2 of his own products. I am sure I could not tell the difference in a blind test. But that comment got me thinking. If I am going to make a significant investment ($650-$850) in a DAC. And I am sold on buying Topping. If the price between these 2 is relatively close. And the D90SE will be available to purchase in the next week or so. Then why not go with their latest and greatest DAC? This is actually how I initially chose the D70S, because it was newer than the D90 non SE.

So in the end, Too much reading led to too much indecision. I have been looking at the APOS site for 2 weeks now. Putting an A90 and D70S in my cart but never completing the purchase. The more I read, the more I go back and forth on what my criteria should be on choosing what to purchase. I suffer from analysis paralysis when making big purchases. Not just on audio gear, but guitar gear, cars, tv's really anything and everything.
Just to add something cause people may not know the context.
The original post was asking in terms of technicalities not audible difference so I went the route and recommended the D90se.
 
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