The New King?

[JohnYang1997]

So I'll preface my Q by saying I don't really know anything about running a business. I have to assume there's evidence of market demand on their side, although this is a somewhat unique situation given what happened with AKM.

But, at this point I'm struggling to understand the evolution of Toppings product lines. They seem to have literally set the new bar for price/performance value but are reiterating existing devices when there's so many other avenues where they could almost certainly compete within top tiers:

Meizu Hifi Pro replacement (moderate power at paperclip sizes)

Multi-channel DACs (Okto8's are still backordered 6+ weeks, even putting out something comparable and keeping it in stock would be huge)

Benchmark AHB/Purifi competition (rumored for some time to be on the way but still no previews that I'm aware of)

Qudelix/ES100 competitor (both good in their own right but some room for improvement)

MiniDSP in general (good stuff but always seem to fumble in weird ways in the last mile; DIRAC-enabled Topping has a nice ring to it)

Having wirtten all that I'm not even sure what my Q is, I guess I'm just confused about why we're starting to see, basically, v2-v3's of already amazing, beyond audibly transparent gear instead of outward expansion.

You don't understand is because you only get to see what's released and not the whole picture. From the outside, D90se is literally the best performing two channel audio DAC in the whole world. And it's literally my first DAC that's released.
There are a lot of things in the industry that we want to change. But when there's competition we will compete. And there are a lot of things being worked on. You get to see when it's ready. But in the mean time we still have to do what we have to do, do what others are doing and crush the competition.

 

[JohnYang1997]

BTW I don't think the demand for 8 channel high performance dac is that high. Although it seems to be backordered even not accepting new orders, there are only a few hundreds of orders. We normally do batches of 300 or 600 units. So I think it's a matter of the perception. Sure there's some demand there, we see it and we acknowledge it.

 

[tifune]

But in the mean time we still have to do what we have to do, do what others are doing and crush the competition.

I guess this is my point - power amps not withstanding, you've essentially already dominated the 2ch arena at prices no one would have believed even 3-5 years ago. But now we're seeing SE edition and D10 v3, A30 Pro when the originals were already phenomenal and still can't be beat at their respective prices. I'm just trying to understand the impetus of this evolution, be it solely based on business requirements or if you're getting a lot of feedback around missing features, whatever the case may be.

 

[hmscott]

The Dual ES9038PRO Gustard X26 Pro has already had measurements by @WolfX-700 :
Measurements of Gustard X26 Pro Dual 9038 Pro DAC | L7Audiolab
Measurements of Gustard X26 Pro Dual 9038 Pro By L7Audiolab | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

The @WolfX-700 measurements are "close" to the Topping measurements for their D90SE, and the Gustard X26 Pro costs $1499 USD, or $600 USD more.
Gustard DAC-X26 Pro DAC Dual ES9038PRO Bluetooth 5.0 — HiFiGo
GUSTARD X26 PRO Full Decoding ES9038Pro*2 Chip DSD512 Bluetooth 5.0 X (shenzhenaudio.com)

Song Shi de official website @ DAC-X26pro (gustard.cn) - Click top right to change text Language to English, more images there:

Spoiler: Gustard X26 Pro internal images:

Can the Gustard X26 Pro be worth $600USD more than the Topping D90SE?

What I am saying is, for the performance provided by the Topping D90SE, IMHO the D90SE is a bargain @ $899.

 

[DeepSpace57]

The Dual ES9038PRO Gustard X26 Pro has already had measurements by @WolfX-700 :
Measurements of Gustard X26 Pro Dual 9038 Pro DAC | L7Audiolab
Measurements of Gustard X26 Pro Dual 9038 Pro By L7Audiolab | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

The @WolfX-700 measurements are "close" to the Topping measurements for their D90SE, and the Gustard X26 Pro costs $1499 USD, or $600 USD more.
Gustard DAC-X26 Pro DAC Dual ES9038PRO Bluetooth 5.0 — HiFiGo
GUSTARD X26 PRO Full Decoding ES9038Pro*2 Chip DSD512 Bluetooth 5.0 X (shenzhenaudio.com)

Can the Gustard X26 Pro be worth $600USD more than the Topping D90SE??

Their design topologies are different. You can surely compare measurements but prices.

 

[boXem]

BTW okto's issue is their own. They only have a few hundreds of orders. We can fullfil the years of demand in one batch.

That is not a very respectful comment. You have no idea of what it means to run a very small business producing electronics in EU these days.
BTW, isn't your I/V topology for the D90SE similar to the one from Okto?

If you want to crush the competition, which is again not very respectful, start by doing a proper remote control.

Edit: congrats for your first DAC
Edit 2: modifications following John's rewording

 

[DeepSpace57]

Guyz! Schitt Modius is for 199 USD !!! IF you would like to hear or believe R2R-colouration, Bifrost 2 is for 699 USD. Bifrost 2 also has a galvanic USB module (Unison USB). Just plug USB in, enjoy!

please read (humming noise of topping vs bifrost 2 solution)

 

[Koeitje]

I think the pricing is fine considering its the best performing DAC in the world. I hope it includes a proper remote for the price?

 

[JohnYang1997]

That is not a very respectful comment. You have no idea of what it means to run a very small business producing electronics in EU these days.
BTW, isn't your I/V topology for the D90SE similar to the one from Okto?

If you want to crush the competition, which is again not very respectful, start by doing a proper remote control.

Edit: congrats for your first DAC

Maybe the point wasn't clear. It was to show that the demand wasn't that high instead of talking down on Okto. I very much respect them. In fact I was quite active in the dac8 stereo thread doing measurements showing how ground breaking it was. It's the first time I see the performance being better than AP's output.
I/V topology isn't secret which was used in Matrix x sabre pro long time ago already. That's only one part of the equation.

Original post was edited.

 

[DeepSpace57]

Anyway, whatever it is. @JohnYang1997 deserves at least respect. This is an undeniably well done-product.

 

[pimy]

Topping D90SE DAC Review - A New Benchmark :
https://soundnews.net/sources/dacs/topping-d90se-dac-review/

And

The One to Beat: Gustard X26 PRO DAC Review :
https://soundnews.net/sources/dacs/gustard-x26-pro-dac-review/

 

[abdo123]

BTW I don't think the demand for 8 channel high performance dac is that high. Although it seems to be backordered even not accepting new orders, there are only a few hundreds of orders. We normally do batches of 300 or 600 units. So I think it's a matter of the perception. Sure there's some demand there, we see it and we acknowledge it.

I think with the adoption of Dolby Atmos in streaming services this might change soon. lets see.

 

[JohnYang1997]

I think with the adoption of Dolby Atmos in streaming services this might change soon. lets see.

I don't think that's possible.

 

[abdo123]

I don't think that's possible.

I think people said the same thing when Stereo was adopted .

People are already reporting that plugging their multichannel DAC via USB to a mac gives them multichannel output.

 

[boXem]

Maybe the point wasn't clear. It was to show that the demand wasn't that high instead of talking down on Okto. I very much respect them. In fact I was quite active in the dac8 stereo thread doing measurements showing how ground breaking it was. It's the first time I see the performance being better than AP's output.
I/V topology isn't secret which was used in Matrix x sabre pro long time ago already. That's only one part of the equation.

Original post was edited.

I know I/V topology is not secret. And it was in no way a hidden finger pointing. I am just very curious
Since the 9038Pro has much lower output resistance than 9028Pro, I guess it allows chosing opamps with low voltage noise without worrying about current noise, right? And also are you attenuating after summing or just having a very low gain for each I/V stage?

I also edited my post, yours being much clearer.

 

[JohnYang1997]

I know I/V topology is not secret. And it was in no way a hidden finger pointing. I am just very curious
Since the 9038Pro has much lower output resistance than 9028Pro, I guess it allows chosing opamps with low voltage noise without worrying about current noise, right? And also are you attenuating after summing or just having a very low gain for each I/V stage?

I also edited my post, yours being much clearer.

I don't see current noise as an issue, but perhaps current output capability. It's nothing but a voltage source + output resistance. Lower output impedance, less effect of current noise.
I/V directly outputs 4V/5V and no attenuation afterwards.

 

[JohnYang1997]

I think people said the same thing when Stereo was adopted .

People are already reporting that plugging their multichannel DAC via USB to a mac gives them multichannel output.

I don't know what you mean.

 

[777]

Why did you implant a smps power supply on D90se ?

 

[abdo123]

I don't know what you mean.

It means that ~12% of the world right now have access to multichannel audio via their 'Music' app and you're here arguing that Multichannel DACs will never be mainstream.

 

[JohnYang1997]

It means that ~12% of the world right now have access to multichannel audio via their 'Music' app and you're here arguing that Multichannel DACs will never be mainstream.