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The new Khadas Tone Board looks amazing (with balanced output)

Azeia

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I think you are mischaracterizing my comments. I am not saying people’s criticism is irrational, rather highlighting the impossibility of the position Khadas are in due to their own excellent execution.
Maybe this is where we disagree though, I don't see the position they're in that way.

Arguing that a company is in an "impossible" situation (caught between a rock and hard place), sounds to me like arguing that all the criticism is equal in the sense that it's all a net loss because no matter who you listen to, you'll piss someone off. But the reality is some of the people complaining are literally just selfish and want something that isn't practical for the product in question, whereas others actually understand the scope of the product, as well as the tradeoffs, and are making sound recommendations. Listening to the latter I would say is all you have to do in order to escape the "paradox" of being in the "impossible situation".

Of course, this does require a skill in being able to tell the difference between good critique and bad, and unfortunately it is a difficult thing for some people.

I appreciate where you are coming from, and hopefully they will continue to offer a bare board solution, but I don’t share your position. I don’t particularly want to spend the time or energy mucking with third party cases. There are a glut of options for high performance, low cost audio gear right now. We are truly in a unique and exceptional time for this, and throwing shade at the companies disrupting established, lower performance offerings will eventually discourage new entries into this space. I appreciate the option to choose the solutions that most appeal to me personally.
Or maybe they'll just change the chassis before release or offer different options? I don't see why this needs to be such a binary situation. Also, I don't think constructive criticism is "throwing shade".

I could also look at it another way, that it might encourage more new entries into this space, because if another company realizes that they can compete with a known product just by having their own product in a better case or something, then you'll have more players joining the market. =p
 

restorer-john

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Maybe because mini-XLR3 is a bear to hand terminate

A "bear" is a nice word for it. I've done quite a few for my various AKGs as the cheap, skinny 3.5mm leads they come with are horrible.

The cheap Chinese mini-xlrs are perfectly fine if you drill out the strain relief boot to take fat twin core shielded microphone cable.
 

Azeia

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Is there even a precedent of anyone else using mini-XLR for balanced connections on a DAC or Amp?

Generally you'd want to stick to connectors that are actually in use for the purpose in question, and thus it'd be easier to find cables instead of having to make your own or buy expensive pre-made ones because they're scarce (since only one vendor is using the connector for that purpose).
 

maxxevv

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Not that the company has a good rep around here but they do use mini-XLR.

NFB1AMP4.JPG
 

Labjr

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Anyone know if the signal will be fully balanced from the ES9038Q2M chip? Or will they just use an op-amp to create a balanced output from the single ended signal?
 
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Veri

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Anyone know if the signal will be fully balanced from the ES9038Q2M chip? Or will they just use and op-amp create a balanced output from the single ended signal?
Likely the second but I'm not sure anyone can know for certain yet without insider knowledge :)
 

Labjr

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Likely the second but I'm not sure anyone can know for certain yet without insider knowledge :)
If they just invert the signal to create a balanced output, there would really be no advantage over unbalanced unless you need to use long cables. Maybe actually be worse depending on how they do it.

I think the ES9038Q2M has differential outputs. But that would mean doubling the audio the circuitry.
 
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Azeia

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If they just invert the signal to create a balanced output, there would really be no advantage over unbalanced unless you need to use long cables. Maybe actually be worse depending on how they do it.
Wouldn't it still serve the purpose of eliminating ground loops?
 

Labjr

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Wouldn't it still serve the purpose of eliminating ground loops?

I suppose, if you lift the shield on the preamp/amp input. But I'd be more concerned with a half-ass balancing configuration which adds an extra op-amp stage to one phase. We'll have to see what they do.

According to the documents that Khadas shares ES9038Q2M does have differential outputs. I'm no engineer, however, I think differential amplfication is needed to reduce noise etc. even for single ended output. I'd love to see dual ES9038Q2M chips like the Topping D7Xs but I won't hold my breath for that.

https://dl.khadas.com/Hardware/ToneBoard/Schematic/Tone_V13 SCH.pdf
 
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Herbert

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Isn´t eliminating the ESS-hump directly connected to using diffential output?
And can be used for balanced and single ended?
 

captain paranoia

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For one thing, it makes stacking with other hardware difficult unless you put it on the top of the stack

Many years ago, in the days of 4k8 and 9k6 modems, one of the sister companies of the company I worked for made modems, intended for commercial users, so they would be very likely to buy a lot of them, and stack them. Some bright spark of a 'product designer' decided that cuboid packages were just too boring, and what was need was nice, rounded, organic shapes. That did not stack.

Some designers never think about how their product might actually be used alongside other products; they are totally fixated on the 'look' of their product. You see it everywhere.

That Khadas case does have a look of some of the bonkers 'gaming mice' that seem to look more like Transformers than a computer mouse; will they turn into a fighting vehicle if left alone too long...?
 

g29

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Is there even a precedent of anyone else using mini-XLR for balanced connections on a DAC or Amp?

Generally you'd want to stick to connectors that are actually in use for the purpose in question, and thus it'd be easier to find cables instead of having to make your own or buy expensive pre-made ones because they're scarce (since only one vendor is using the connector for that purpose).

The balanced out version of the exaSound e38 DAC uses mini-XLRs.

e38-back-XLR--800.png
 

Labjr

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Isn´t eliminating the ESS-hump directly connected to using diffential output?
And can be used for balanced and single ended?

I suspect it's not that simple. From the schematic it appears Khadas uses the differential outputs from the DAC, and convert it to single ended. They must be pretty smart to have made a product that's such a great value.
 

Herbert

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What is a bit strange about the Khadas casing that it probably needs to be molded, which is expensive in plastic
and even more expensive in diecast aluminium if heat transfer becomes an issue.
On the other hand, they have already made this kind of casings for the VIM
from Polycarbonate.
 
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Labjr

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What is a bit strange about the Khadas casing that it probably needs to be molded, which is expensive in plastic
and even more expensive in diecast aluminium if heat transfer becomes an issue.
On the other hand, they have already made this kind of casings for the VIM
from Polycarbonate.

I don't know what else they could make it out of? They plan on selling thousands. Plastic is cheap and non-conductive. Mold-makers probably work for $2 an hour in China.
 

maxxevv

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Mold-makers probably work for $2 an hour in China.

The trainee apprentices perhaps.

I do know 2 guys who are in that line in China, very senior guys, 15-20 years work experience. They definitely earn a fair bit more than that (if its a 9 hour work day), but they work extremely long hours due to the nature of their work.
 

Azeia

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I don't know what else they could make it out of? They plan on selling thousands. Plastic is cheap and non-conductive. Mold-makers probably work for $2 an hour in China.
I'm not sure but I thought maybe @Herbert was saying that they're using molds as opposed to milling or just folding sheets of aluminium into a case, which might be cheaper for a smaller volume of units.
 
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