The MSB Cascade and the art of over engineering

[Petrushka]

I spat coffee over this one!

Confession: my audio gear is plugged into a UPS. I listened for noise at the speakers and heard none.

 

[thegeton]

"...not even Hans Beekhuyzen will be able to detect any jitter..."

Is this the new de facto ASR jitter standard?

 

[kemmler3D]

This kind of thing depresses me a little.

We have (apparently) skilled engineers, designers and machinists spending their days cranking out $95K worth of gear - for what? To accomplish the same thing we can do with 1% of that expenditure of effort and materials.

This is a failure to allocate resources effectively, in a way that would actually benefit people. And the reason is nothing more than foolishness on the part of audiophiles who have more money than sense and can't get their heads around bits just being bits.

Pretty sad.

 

[DWPress]

I've owned several bits of MSB gear over the years but from the era before they focused so much on external appearances and resembled NAD or Brahn but still extremely good building practice. I still use a MSB PAD-1 ADC in my system and was curious enough to bust out my PC and do some measurements with pkane's Multitone app which I posted here. The results did not meet spec but good enough for vinyl playback considering it is now over 30 years old gear. Some pics of the older stuff:

 

[Petrushka]

This kind of thing depresses me a little.

We have (apparently) skilled engineers, designers and machinists spending their days cranking out $95K worth of gear - for what? To accomplish the same thing we can do with 1% of that expenditure of effort and materials.

This is a failure to allocate resources effectively, in a way that would actually benefit people. And the reason is nothing more than foolishness on the part of audiophiles who have more money than sense and can't get their heads around bits just being bits.

Pretty sad.

Overpriced stuff is free advertising for price effective stuff. But using your metric, 90 percent of everything I have ever owned was pre-owned. I am the ultimate re-cycler. Repair, re-use, re-purpose.

 

[sq225917]

If it was over engineered it would just be a couple of chips in a box, it's over designed and over priced for performance

 

[Petrushka]

If it was over engineered it would just be a couple of chips in a box, it's over designed and over priced for performance

Let’s see the double blind vanilla/chocolate test.

 

[pleroma]

I had the MSB Select DAC (the Cascade predesessor) at home for a couple of weeks on loan. It was the best DAC I have heard at that point, and I have heard (and owned) more than a few heavy weight contenders. The only drawback was that it was soo bloody expensive (and the fact I was not able to afford it).

You may question the way it is engineered (or overengineered), but as long as you don't have personal experience with the product, the whole discussion is moot.

I agree. I've owned a number of DACs and the MSB Select DAC was by far the best sounding. I haven't heard the Cascade, but I know the MSB guys worked on it for years, and didn't release it until they were satisfied it surpassed their Select DAC, and then priced it well below the 10-year-old flagship.

There appears to be very little science in this review, but a number of false statements (e.g. little to no proprietary technology, and doubtful most could detect any difference). I've never seen anyone who has heard an MSB DAC say things like this.

Why don't you apply the scientific method, and actually listen to the equipment you "critique?"

 

[rank]

Uh uh uh

 

[Moderate Dionysianism]

Why don't you apply the scientific method, and actually listen to the equipment you "critique?"

Because assessing a modern DAC's performance by ear is about as scientific as tasting tissue samples to diagnose cancer.

 

[thegeton]

You will have to excuse me while my corneas scrape the ceiling...

 

[Cbdb2]

I had the MSB Select DAC (the Cascade predesessor) at home for a couple of weeks on loan. It was the best DAC I have heard at that point, and I have heard (and owned) more than a few heavy weight contenders. The only drawback was that it was soo bloody expensive (and the fact I was not able to afford it).

You may question the way it is engineered (or overengineered), but as long as you don't have personal experience with the product, the whole discussion is moot.

That was blind listening? Didn't think so.

 

[Cbdb2]

Why don't you apply the scientific method, and actually listen to the equipment you "critique?"

Why don't you learn what scientific method is.

 

[MattHooper]

This kind of thing depresses me a little.

We have (apparently) skilled engineers, designers and machinists spending their days cranking out $95K worth of gear - for what? To accomplish the same thing we can do with 1% of that expenditure of effort and materials.

This is a failure to allocate resources effectively, in a way that would actually benefit people. And the reason is nothing more than foolishness on the part of audiophiles who have more money than sense and can't get their heads around bits just being bits.

Pretty sad.

Some of the crazy pricing in high-end audio sort of depressed me… or gets my blood boiling. At some point it just feels so nakedly cynical.

At the same time, I don’t have any in principle cut off point for when I feel something is too expensive. After all I own some gear that many others would feel is way too expensive. So I’m aware of that glass house.

So I guess to certain agree it’s somewhat arbitrary and boils down to vibes where I just see certain gear and how it’s priced and I just wanna say “f*ck off” to the manufacturer.

 

[kemmler3D]

Some of the crazy pricing in high-end audio sort of depressed me… or gets my blood boiling. At some point it just feels so nakedly cynical.

At the same time, I don’t have any in principle cut off point for when I feel something is too expensive. After all I own some gear that many others would feel is way too expensive. So I’m aware of that glass house.

So I guess to certain agree it’s somewhat arbitrary and boils down to vibes where I just see certain gear and how it’s priced and I just wanna say “f*ck off” to the manufacturer.

Honestly the price isn't what concerns me, it's all the genuine effort, expertise, and good materials being used for no real purpose. If it costs $10 or $1M, it's still time and stuff that could have gone to something people actually benefit from. True overengineering - to no end, and when it's not subtle, as in this case, is not a good thing.

 

[mocenigo]

The last I checked the MSB R2R DACs never were good measuring.

Mola Mola Tambaqui Measurements

In response to precisely that remark on my part they’re suddenly getting inquiries relating to "old design" etc etc... It’s odd that people might think that the development timeline should affect the performance of the product but there you go. Back in the day, for example, McIntosh would keep...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Because they use a little R2R network instead of a randomised thermometer encoding. To save on current sources and resistors. They charge $$$$ and they are cheap. And the signal is single ended. They could have used a differential signal and randomize an offset. But, no. They are cheap, but charge $$$$.

 

[Spenav]

This kind of thing depresses me a little.

We have (apparently) skilled engineers, designers and machinists spending their days cranking out $95K worth of gear - for what? To accomplish the same thing we can do with 1% of that expenditure of effort and materials.

This is a failure to allocate resources effectively, in a way that would actually benefit people. And the reason is nothing more than foolishness on the part of audiophiles who have more money than sense and can't get their heads around bits just being bits.

Pretty sad.

I am just curious, what exactly are you doing personally to allocate resources to benefit humanity? What’s the name of the DAC you created with 1% of the $95k? Frankly, you guys are starting to sound like jealous teenagers. What you all failed to grapple is that these items, like the Ferraris, the Gucci purses and the Rolex watches are not marketed to you. No need to get your blood pressure up when you see them. Just move on. I bet you money, if you win a substantial amount in the lottery, your taste in everything will change drastically. Keep in mind, what you spend on your system today can feed a lot of kids in India.