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The most overrated and underrated headphone you tried?
- Thread starter yuki980e
- Start date
digicidal
Major Contributor
Because white noise and or frequency sweeps could also be described as "music consisting of every frequency at equal tempo and average level"?
not sure what you're getting at but im trying to say that there isn't anything "magical" about music that makes it "special", that sets it apart from a bunch of sine waves... that comment is made in jest and poking fun at the idea that music has a magical property that makes it different from artificially generated sine waves
whatever waveform you see in any music track really can be broken down into individual sine waves AFAIK
Nango
Major Contributor
You have to answer my question first ....
See other replies regarding your question 'why not?'
If one is talking about music and you answer and argue with (measure) tones, why should I answer this? It is not consistent. That's it. Music vs tones is widely discussed with no consensus ever. So I dont really understand why we should stick to here.
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any waveform that you see in any music track can actually be broken down into individual sine waves, said waveform is really just a result of all these individual sine waves being summed into a single waveform...
solderdude
Grand Contributor
Music vs tones has a clear relation when tested blind and under controled conditions.
Music vs tones has a little relation when tested sighted for sure.
I also agree that there isn't full correlation when looking for borders of audibility between test tones and music.
And agree that 1dB lift in the lows is audible... but is just 1dB for the HD800.
In this case the boost in the lows is purely due to voltage division, this is exactly the same for music and tones.
Nango
Major Contributor
Might be, could be, but is it the same, measuring music than measuring tones? I dont know ......
Again, if one is talking about music, why dont you measure and come up with that instead of measuring tones?
If I taste chocolate and I taste red wine .... and given you could measure the chemistry involved .... does it taste like chocolate + red wine at the same time? Certainly not.
But hey, you win, I dont want to bother anyone here.
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solderdude
Grand Contributor
You need to consider that I am talking about differences in output impedance only.
For instance when using a high output Z tube amp and low output Z SS amp there may be more differences than just the impedance which could make you draw a different conclusion based on (sighted ?) observations you made.
This, however, has nothing to do with tones vs music or noise vs music.
And it has nothing to do with tasting different things.
A better analogy would be you taste different chocolates and they only differ slightly in sugar content.
For instance when using a high output Z tube amp and low output Z SS amp there may be more differences than just the impedance which could make you draw a different conclusion based on (sighted ?) observations you made.
This, however, has nothing to do with tones vs music or noise vs music.
And it has nothing to do with tasting different things.
A better analogy would be you taste different chocolates and they only differ slightly in sugar content.
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Nango
Major Contributor
@solderdude: Wait!!! I own the VMV VA2 recently tested by Amir since a couple of years. While it is not my regular amp when listening to the HD800 I **always** felt the difference between those two outputs, with one being very low and one very high Zout. So definitely must be there something else than only what you showed up in the chart.
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digicidal
Major Contributor
I would say that in almost every case measuring a device using music would be nearly meaningless... objectively speaking at least. What music would you use? And how would you then reliably extrapolate a result which could be broadly applied to anyone regardless of whether they were interested in listening to that music? Although measurement of the difference of input and output would still be possible... it is still waveforms being measured.
Now on the other hand, if there was a 'music' that was uniform and consistent and could therefore be used to simply measure deviance from that sound precisely... we could use that to generalize results for any form of audio. Oh wait...
Now on the other hand, if there was a 'music' that was uniform and consistent and could therefore be used to simply measure deviance from that sound precisely... we could use that to generalize results for any form of audio. Oh wait...
Nango
Major Contributor
Yes @digicidal, but besides that, how can one come up with tones when the discussion is about perceiving music ..... and still insist that this is consistent?
the point we’re trying to make here is that there isn’t anything “magical” about music that can’t be applied to test tones.
what applies for test tones can generally be applied to music.
digicidal
Major Contributor
A discussion about "perceiving music" is perfectly valid and subjective... it's what every music enthusiast spends most of their time discussing. It is not an objective description/test of a device for playing music however.
I can, theoretically come up with a situation in which a musical test will not adequately describe a device playing test tones.
I cannot come up with a situation where test tones (provided all frequencies are represented) cannot adequately describe a device playing music.
Nango
Major Contributor
Exactly, perfect!! .... Tones, probably lots of them......but not only just ONE tone !!!!!
solderdude
Grand Contributor
Noise is LOTS of tones, even more so than in music and the handy part (with white noise) is that averaged over time the amplitude is the same for all frequencies that are present simultaniously. EXACTLY the same result as with sweaped sine.
Here is the thing about your amp and why both outputs sound more different than just the shown difference.
This too is due to voltage division by the way. The higher output R will simply have a different amplitude as well.
The High-Z out is 3.07dB lower in output level (HD800) and will have a 1.18dB increase in bass.
Those 2 effects combined is what you hear.
Here is the thing about your amp and why both outputs sound more different than just the shown difference.
This too is due to voltage division by the way. The higher output R will simply have a different amplitude as well.
The High-Z out is 3.07dB lower in output level (HD800) and will have a 1.18dB increase in bass.
Those 2 effects combined is what you hear.
Nango
Major Contributor
No one discussing this, at no time. But again, does one or two tones measure the same way like music? Do you have any even remote evidence for that? Senseless.
thomasjast
Active Member
You do know that music can be represented by visual waveforms, right? You can record music from the same source and it'll always look the same. Are you suggesting otherwise?
Nango
Major Contributor
Again, yes, by lots of them, not just one test tone. Measuring one test tone is the same like measuring thousands of them at once? I doubt it. So, that's my very last comment on this topic. Unwatched this thread..