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The most important parameter of all: overall system integrity

fas42

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This is really a placeholder thread for ideas and thoughts on this concept, one that I fervently believe in, and have mentioned over and over again throughout my "interesting" :D :confused: audio forum years ...

I was just provoked to kick it off, because there are a couple of recent threads, here and at the "other place", which are part of the picture: Contact Enhancers, Hardwiring a complete system, Power cord and its effect, DAC design: the I/V stage. These are all aspects that can matter ... and what does "matter" actually mean? For me, that's the other side of the coin - it's not to get brilliant technical performance, that's measurable and good fodder for boasting about - its about what the other threads floating around are talking about, with people getting heated up: achieving "special" sound. Most know it when they hear it, the Austin Acoustic conversation is directly on this matter, and prior to that the kerfuffle about MasterBuilt cables kept things stewing awhile, which in turn arose from the visit to some ambitious Philippine systems, where a very positive reaction to the sound occurred.

So, I won't repeat myself here - the floor's open! ;)
 

amirm

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The epiphany that happens for many people goes beyond the inanimate system and room. They influenced by the music, look of the system, the people involved, mood, state of hearing, etc., etc. It is the total experience that moves them. Unfortunately then then go backward and make technical attributions that are not merited, ala Steve and Masterbuilt cables. Unless a careful blind AB test is performed you can't turn around and say, "it was the cable" or "the contact cleaner."
 

RayDunzl

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I just finished bi-wiring my speakers, because I can, and hadn't, yet, at this house.

Well, not finished finished, since I didn't add antioxidants to the new shiny parts yet, and may not have dressed the cables to my complete satisfaction.

I rediscovered that my cable lengths left and right are slightly different, with the longer ones on the left speaker, because the speaker terminals are both on the right hand side of the back of the speaker, and not a symmetrical mirror image. Now I have somewhat longer than that going to the ESL panel, since they have to loop up and then back down to make the termination, where the woofer cables just need to bend up.

I took before and after measurements, too.

Then I re-listened to some of what was still in the CD player.

Now I am thinking about what some other people think they hear after something "changes", usually without any attempt by them to objectify the results of the change.
 
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fas42

fas42

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The epiphany that happens for many people goes beyond the inanimate system and room. They influenced by the music, look of the system, the people involved, mood, state of hearing, etc., etc. It is the total experience that moves them. Unfortunately then then go backward and make technical attributions that are not merited, ala Steve and Masterbuilt cables. Unless a careful blind AB test is performed you can't turn around and say, "it was the cable" or "the contact cleaner."
Sometimes that may happen, with exactly the right recording for that moment being played. It's getting repeatability of the experience with any particular recording that counts, something I've wrestled with for years!

As always, it's never a "magic" something that is the one and only answer ... it's getting rid of the last impediments to achieving the required quality, and those issues could be anything, for any particular system.
 
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fas42

fas42

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Now I am thinking about what some other people think they hear after something "changes", usually without any attempt by them to objectify the results of the change.
The chasing for change is an eternal dogfight, a never ending looping - vastly more useful is whether there is "specialness" or not; the presence or absence of that is a simple Yes/No, and there are audible behaviours that always go with "specialness", making it easy to evaluate: the 100% disappearing speakers, the locked in positioning with mono material, etc.
 
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fas42

fas42

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Talking about "special" sound, I only just stumbled over 853guy's 'rave', on WBF's "New Music High End Innovation Show in Brussels, October 15 & 16, 2016" thread ... it's interesting that it's popping out more often these days, at shows; gear is getting closer to having enough integrity to push things over the line without having all sorts of extra fiddling required - this is a good sign ... ;).
 

RayDunzl

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Talking about "special" sound

I'm still trying to digest the incredible improvements wrought by the Entreq Everest ($400 or so?), which, as far as I can tell, is a wooden handle with a metal nut on the end of it (like the smaller K2, but $100 more) to replace whatever held the cable to the Entrec Box terminals before.

K2 and Everest

upload_2016-10-16_22-26-6.png


As always, I could be misinformed.
 
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fas42

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First, get a solution, any solution, to solve a problem ... wooden boxes with funny stuff inside, nutty handles here, there and everywhere - may get one over a hurdle, in solving a sound quality issue. The really tricky bit then most likely will be working out what the hell is going on!! ... I've been there many times, and have sympathy for those wrestling with it ... and, I haven't got the answers, not the "real" ones, so don't bother asking ... :p.

Making money out of it like these mobs is just part of the journey - down the track solid explanations will emerge; the main thing is that systems can be put together now that demonstrate the quality that's possible, and that can be shown off to get people excited - the fact that whacko stuff is part of the package shouldn't get in the way of appreciating that.

Everyday stuff can be used to push systems to the right quality level, lots of trial and error in the process unfortunately - it doesn't require paying silly money to get sufficient "integrity".
 

amirm

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The really tricky bit then most likely will be working out what the hell is going on!! ...
And in that manner, be sure to think of what is going on in your brain in addition to the equipment....
 

RayDunzl

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My biwire before/after measurements say "no change" - at least, within the limits of in-room measurements and the repeatability thereof.

Ear says, no harm done, so, I'm cool. I'll see how the ear feels in a few days.

Cost: $0 and an hour or two of messing around.

But, it will permit me to experiment with the polarity of the woofer vs the panel, and enable the experiment of subs only and no woofer, so, that's something to think about, in my quest to measurably improve my slightly ragged low end.
 
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fas42

fas42

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And in that manner, be sure to think of what is going on in your brain in addition to the equipment....
That's been sorted out looong time ago - as Ray says, let your ears tell you in the longer term. To speed up the process, have on hand a bundle of really "nasty" recordings, wind up the volume on these, and turn your focus to something entirely unrelated to music which requires close attention - and just feel how your stress levels go through the roof when the system's off kilter - "measure" how long before you have to run to the system to wind back the volume, or hit the "Off!" switch.. easy peasy, :D.
 

Cosmik

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I think most everything to do with "repeatability" is down to the listener's 'mood'. Sometimes we are in the mood for music and at others we aren't. Sometimes, if our favourite performers staged a live concert on our front lawn we wouldn't get that big a kick from it. I think I even know whether I want to hear music before I even turn the system on.

These mood changes happen all the time: sometimes I know that I really, really want a cup of coffee. Even a cup of instant will do - and will taste better than the real thing does when not in the mood. But when you're in the mood, and there's a cup of the real thing available, that's the best cup of coffee you will ever taste.
 
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fas42

fas42

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I think most everything to do with "repeatability" is down to the listener's 'mood'. Sometimes we are in the mood for music and at others we aren't. Sometimes, if our favourite performers staged a live concert on our front lawn we wouldn't get that big a kick from it. I think I even know whether I want to hear music before I even turn the system on.
Not quite. If I'm not in the mood for listening to live music it doesn't stop it sounding like real music - I don't have tune into someone playing a piano, and if I don't it sounds a bit fake; I may not like the sound at that moment for some personal reasons, but it still has the oomph of the real deal.

And the same goes for systems producing competent sound - I don't have to "need" it to give me a hit, it will still produce that quality of sound irrespective of my mood. The standard line that people put out about downing a few reds to get the listening mood right is a huge giveaway - the senses need to be dulled so that you're less aware of the flaws in the sound, it becomes easier to "fool you" ...
 

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I think most everything to do with "repeatability" is down to the listener's 'mood'. Sometimes we are in the mood for music and at others we aren't. Sometimes, if our favourite performers staged a live concert on our front lawn we wouldn't get that big a kick from it. I think I even know whether I want to hear music before I even turn the system on.
Very true. Has happened to me countless times. Same system, same content and the walk away experience is different. Sometimes I have thought something was broken just to find out nothing was, and the old performance comes back right there and then.
 
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fas42

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Very true. Has happened to me countless times. Same system, same content and the walk away experience is different. Sometimes I have thought something was broken just to find out nothing was, and the old performance comes back right there and then.
Which is all about focus. You tune into some aspects of what you're hearing, and exclude all others - 3 people side by side at a live classical orchestral performance: one hears the lush tones of the various sections of the orchestra in balance; another revels in the reverberations and bounce of the sound in the hall space; and the third is intensely irritated by several people in front of him shifting around in their chairs in front of them, rubbing their feet on the floor. The whole sound universe is there to sample - and you make your choices.

Where much of audio gets it wrong is that not enough "good" information is put out, and it can be a struggle to make the focus "stick" ... I note that 853guy is still revelling in the memory of his experience listening to the Aries Cerat system; the reason that occurred was because the rig combination was pumping out oodles of the "good stuff", with minimal "badness" added.
 

amirm

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Where much of audio gets it wrong is that not enough "good" information is put out, and it can be a struggle to make the focus "stick" ... I note that 853guy is still revelling in the memory of his experience listening to the Aries Cerat system; the reason that occurred was because the rig combination was pumping out oodles of the "good stuff", with minimal "badness" added.
Why? Why couldn't it have been some nice sounding music he had not heard before?
 
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fas42

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Nice sounding music always helps, ;) - it's when you put on the "dreadful" stuff, and yet you say, "Wow!!" that count - it's experiences like this that are game-changers. I'm very familiar with with what he experienced - a dodgy recording that can sound like it's coming from an old kitchen radio on most systems dramatically transforms into an enveloping, immersive musical experience, that draws you into its world effortlessly.

The number of times I've asked for some CD to be played on some unknown system, and this tiny, flat sound comes out - the demo guy looks at me as if I have rocks in my head - "Why did you ask me to play this rubbish, eh ...?" ... well, if your setup was in better shape ...
 

Blumlein 88

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Nice sounding music always helps, ;) - it's when you put on the "dreadful" stuff, and yet you say, "Wow!!" that count - it's experiences like this that are game-changers. I'm very familiar with with what he experienced - a dodgy recording that can sound like it's coming from an old kitchen radio on most systems dramatically transforms into an enveloping, immersive musical experience, that draws you into its world effortlessly.

The number of times I've asked for some CD to be played on some unknown system, and this tiny, flat sound comes out - the demo guy looks at me as if I have rocks in my head - "Why did you ask me to play this rubbish, eh ...?" ... well, if your setup was in better shape ...

My favorite CD for this is Robert Johnson The Complete Recordings. Fidelity was shall we say minimal. If a system doesn't move you with that recording, it is no good. And I don't even agree with your premise here Frank. Too many human variables for your premise to ever work.
 

RayDunzl

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Sounds good to me on my cheezy PC speakers that are firing into the back of the monitors (no room on the desk).
 
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fas42

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Spot on about the Robert Johnson recordings, Dennis. But I'm not quite which premise you mean - that overall system integrity is key? Or that one can achieve "special" sound? Or that a dodgy recording can transform into an enveloping, immersive musical experience? Yes, human variables will come into it, but so far the majority of people I've come across are receptive to the qualities I aim for.

Recordings of Nellie Melba, just post 1910, are another good one: a squeaky, almost comical voice becomes a powerfully intense operatic projection by a real person, nicely balanced by a realistic piano, well behind her.
 
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