I guess so. It is likely the way of the future but it may be some time before it becomes popular. A major game-changer will be when wireless speakers (hopefully with lossless transport, internal buffering and some sort of low latency master clock signal) are reliable and widely adopted by AVRs.
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The impossible decision of buying an AVR/AVP!
- Thread starter Kostas
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- Thread Starter
- #143
I was days away from ordering the 3700H until I saw a new video by one of the HT channels I m subscribed to about the new AVRs. I really have him to thank for that! I have the budget for the 3800H! After all this time 200 extra euros is not gonna make a difference in my decision. What troubles me is the 4800h DDSC HD Digital feature which is separate dacs for multichannel sound instead of a single multichannel dac (from what I understood). The seller I ve been talking to told me that it's a really good feature for noise reduction and it's also made in Japan. These are literally the only 2 reasons I would pick the 4800h over the 3800h but I don't know if the real world difference justifies the 400 extra euros....
Why can't I win the lottery... I don't want much... just a 3 grand price to get the new overpriced marantz processor and stop worrying about such things
HiI was days away from ordering the 3700H until I saw a new video by one of the HT channels I m subscribed to about the new AVRs. I really have him to thank for that! I have the budget for the 3800H! After all this time 200 extra euros is not gonna make a difference in my decision. What troubles me is the 4800h DDSC HD Digital feature which is separate dacs for multichannel sound instead of a single multichannel dac (from what I understood). The seller I ve been talking to told me that it's a really good feature for noise reduction and it's also made in Japan. These are literally the only 2 reasons I would pick the 4800h over the 3800h but I don't know if the real world difference justifies the 400 extra euros....
Why can't I win the lottery... I don't want much... just a 3 grand price to get the new overpriced marantz processor and stop worrying about such things
I wouldn't worry by the differences that DDSC HD Digital would bring to the reproduction. Better SINAD maybe? from 85 to 90? even more? Fine... This coming from someone who recently got humbled ("humiliated" would have been a better term), by the Klippel Listening test: I wasn't able to go past -25 dB of THD level reliably ... The 3800 is IMO the sweet spot and a good product, capable of fulfilling the duties of AVP, in most Audio systems.
YMMV.
Peace
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- Thread Starter
- #146
Wow, unreal! Did they increase the price?? I am pretty sure when I checked the moment they released the new models on their site the price of the 4800h was around 2100$... They sure got greedy... At 2500$ I m better of buying AV7706 processor... I checked and they released it in the market in my country today for 2600 euros so I guess denon made the choice for me. I swear if there was another brand with a pre-amp mode I would have gone for it just because I hate those kind of practices... Thanks for the heads up!
Thank you for your input! I am glad to hear that since it looks like the 4800h is way off budget. Like I said several times my lack of listening experience when it comes to AVRs and experiencing/comparing different products with different SINAD makes it extremely difficult to understand what the impact is in real life. I see a SINAD value and in my head I might overreact and think that a a small difference in values might make a huge difference in real life scenarios... This is my first home theater setup and my income won't allow me to upgrade for a long time so this is why I am so worried. I want to get it right the first time cause I don't have the luxury of buying something else in case I am not satisfied with the product I get...
Yes it was discussed here, and most people think that the price difference is not justified. It is unclear that Denon positioned their products badly, or they just want to push more people buying x3800h. Dollar to dollar it presents much better value than x4800h
- Thread Starter
- #148
What they really did was pricing the 3800h at the same price the 4700h was before the second price increase to 2100$, removed a few features to make the 4700/4800 still relevant and just added more 8k ports, and 2 extra subs plus dirac which will set you back another 450$ for the full license (if I remember correctly).
In my opinion they loved the initial price hike, which was justified due to the pandemic plus shipping cost increases, and they thought to themselves, "since people are willing to pay extra for the same product let's make it even more expensive because we can". They should have negotiated a good deal and include dirac in all models from 3800H and above to justify the additional 200$ increase like onkyo did with the TX-RZ50. I mean if a company like onkyo can do it at 1700$ price then it should be easier for denon to do the same considering the amount of AVRs they selling.
I am hostage to the pre-amp mode since all my speakers are active and I have not choice but to go with either the 3700h or 3800h.
X3800h is basically the new x4700h, except 20w less per channel and no front hdmi. In exchange it supports 4 sub, 6/3 hdmi 2.1, individually turn off each amp channel which was only available on x8500h iirc. That an dirac.
I am not exactly happy with the new price but I kinda understand the justification. Just can't understand price for x4800h
I am not exactly happy with the new price but I kinda understand the justification. Just can't understand price for x4800h
- Thread Starter
- #150
I didn't know that. Does that mean that If I want to use pre-amp mode for my 5.1 active system, but I also have 4 passive atmos ceiling speakers, I can plug them in the AVR and only 4 amps will be used while the rest will be off thus reducing amp noise?
Dirac is not included in the price so as far as I am concerned the new AVRs do not have Dirac. Either that or the real cost of the 3800h is over 2100$.
IMHO there is no justification for any of them. A new model requires some kind of upgrade at the same price-range otherwise there is no point releasing it. If a few additional features justified the 200$ increase in a product that was already 400$ more expensive than when it was released then the 3700h should have been at least 200$ more expensive than the 3600H's MSRP.
Technology advances so things that used to be expensive become cheaper in time. This is why companies can release new models with higher stats and more features at the same price every year. This feels like a CPU company releasing the next gen CPU which is the same as the previous gen but with 2 additional cores and yet instead of costing at least the same is more expensive.
The 3800h is exactly that. It's a 3700h with the ability to unlock some extra feature for an extra 200$.
Regarding the 4800h.... Well it doesn't make any sense whatsoever...
This completely disregards the reality of the world we are living in… parts shortages, inflation, massive shipping increases, cost of labor etc. And yes, the purpose of a company is to make a profit. Are they priced too high? The market will decide. If they did, sales will plummet and other brands will be selected by consumers. That is why it is important for the Onkyo/Pioneer to release their higher end models as well as other brands.
- Thread Starter
- #152
Amen to that! Feels like all the other companies are 1-2 generations behind denon at this point. For example Pre-amp mode should have been the standard for every AVR over 1000$ at this point...
That was the justification for the initial 400$ price increase and let's not forget that when they were first released at 1200$ they were using a better, AKM chip.
But it also disregards that the newer generations aren’t really apples to apples comparison with the older models.. 4 sub outs, Dirac, etc… I don’t like price increases either but it seems pointless to complain about pricing. The customer is the one with the power.. to buy it, or something else if they feel the price is too high relative to the marketplace. If Dirac is not important a used 3300-3700 is still an excellent receiver. I have a feeling there will be a lot of used Denon’s on the market which will be excellent values in the next year.
Nattage
Member
Probably a little late in chiming in.
I have a tonewinner at-300 going into powered genelec speakers and can't think of anything better without spending 5 to 10 times as much for TV and movies.
Admittedly for hi-fi it's pants.
I used to run a topping DAC into its analogue in on by pass, for this and latterly, by pass it altogether feeding them a digital signal for music.
I have a tonewinner at-300 going into powered genelec speakers and can't think of anything better without spending 5 to 10 times as much for TV and movies.
Admittedly for hi-fi it's pants.
I used to run a topping DAC into its analogue in on by pass, for this and latterly, by pass it altogether feeding them a digital signal for music.
I don't think they are. Denon has a design problem, the reduction in pre out capabilities when the amps are on is a flaw that should be remedied.
The Onkyo RZ50 manage a similar performance to the X3700 on pre outs when it's amps are on.
This means you can leave them on and use a hybrid configuration with some channels powered internally and others externally.
In this case we have denon making up ground on its competitor.
- Thread Starter
- #156
On the contrary, we should complain about pricing, otherwise if the companies don't receive that negative feedback they ll think everything is OK and they can keep increasing prices. I agree that the consumers could show them how much they agree using their wallets but in a market with so few decent choices it's hard to do so.
This is very interesting! I had no idea that was the case! I thought that Pre-amp mode was a feature that separated denon from the rest AVR companies! For me that makes both the pioneer VSX-LX505 and Onkyo TX-RZ50 viable options! At 1600€ and 1800€ respectively with full licence Dirac included they are a much more budget friendly choice. I disregarded those 2 AVRs the moment I noticed they don't have pre-amp mode so I will do some research to see if their reliability, feature set and sound quality is good enough to choose one of them instead.
The only think I see as a pro with the pre-amp mode is that the AVR will be more reliable and cool over time since the amps won't be used.
Chances are that the new Denons will give you access to the upcoming Dirac spatial room correction whereas the "older" Onkyo/Pioneer AVRs might not have enough processing power for that. It could even be that DLBC is not available on Onkyo/Pioneer, but I don't know. Maybe another member can tell.
I have the baby of the Onkyo series - Integra DRX 3.4 - as I don't need the additional channels, and it has pre-outs and Dirac - it runs very cool - much cooler than previous generation AVR's I have had. (although I do use external amps for the front L/C/R ... so minimal load)
Pre 2015 Onkyo's/Integra's had loads of heat issues... they seem to have resolved them. (!)
Sorry to break it to you but Denon/Marantz do most of the internal processing at 32kHz. Here is the reference curve filter coefficients hacked from Mult-EQ app for nearly top of the line SR6015:
For starters, that means no correction can technically be done above 16kHz Nyquist. In fact, the highest band in the 9-band graphic equalizers of these receivers is at 16kHz!
How accurately you can correct bass frequencies with just 1024 taps they are using is also mysterious.
I can already hear audyssey bots coming to claim you don't need to EQ high frequencies
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Actually as I recall, the tests of the X3700 (and others of the series?) showed a cutoff indicating 96kHz processing....
But if running in straight through mode - without any processing engaged (ie: no EQ, Mixer, etc...) - then the resolution is whatever it says it is.
The system is capable of running high resolution - but as soon as you engage the DSP it is dropped down - at the very least to 96kHz (but what it gets dropped down to with other/future models or software, is anyones guess!)
But if running in straight through mode - without any processing engaged (ie: no EQ, Mixer, etc...) - then the resolution is whatever it says it is.
The system is capable of running high resolution - but as soon as you engage the DSP it is dropped down - at the very least to 96kHz (but what it gets dropped down to with other/future models or software, is anyones guess!)
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