The impossible decision of buying an AVR/AVP!

[dlaloum]

Yes, apologies my terminology may not be entirely accurate. I thought Durac Live was the collective name applicable to all domestic software applications;

Dirac Live adds value to any sound system, be it an entry-level soundbar, a high-end home theater system, or a professional recording studio. To offer our business partners flexibility for licensing Dirac Live, we’ve developed three tiers.

— Ready: The system is prepared for Dirac Live Room Correction. Just purchase an end-user license to activate it.

— Limited bandwidth: The system can perform room correction up to 500 Hz, and the target curve can be tailored within this range. This correction is sufficient to deal with the bass and voice areas but not the entire audible spectrum. Upgrade Limited bandwidth to full bandwidth.

— Full bandwidth: This is the top tier of the room correction feature. It allows the system to be corrected across the entire frequency range while giving you full control of the target curve.

You can choose between the stereo and the multi-channel version if you purchase a Dirac Live Room Correction Suite license that runs on your PC.

And then to this add Bass management module. I think the AVRs you mention have limited range capability? If you want access to the full range and Bass management your options are more limited.

The AVR's I am talking about, starting at circa AU$1700 street price, have Dirac Live "Full Bandwidth" - they only have a single subwoofer channel, so multisub adjustments are out of the question, and DLBC (Bass Management) is limited to EQ and time alignment of the one Sub with the main speakers.

At the mass market price levels, the Denon AVR's have the lowest priced combination which supports multi-sub tuning using Audyssey.... but although better in the bass as a result, I have found the midrange to be noticeably better with Dirac - and for me, midrange comes first.

 

[Peluvius]

The AVR's I am talking about, starting at circa AU$1700 street price, have Dirac Live "Full Bandwidth" - they only have a single subwoofer channel, so multisub adjustments are out of the question, and DLBC (Bass Management) is limited to EQ and time alignment of the one Sub with the main speakers.

At the mass market price levels, the Denon AVR's have the lowest priced combination which supports multi-sub tuning using Audyssey.... but although better in the bass as a result, I have found the midrange to be noticeably better with Dirac - and for me, midrange comes first.

Where do you find this information? I look on the Dirac website and it only lists NAD, Bryston and Arcam receivers and when I look through the Denon website for example, it does not list Direct as a supported option (that I could find). How do you implement Dirac on say a 4700?

 

[Chromatischism]

The AVR's I am talking about, starting at circa AU$1700 street price, have Dirac Live "Full Bandwidth" - they only have a single subwoofer channel, so multisub adjustments are out of the question, and DLBC (Bass Management) is limited to EQ and time alignment of the one Sub with the main speakers.

At the mass market price levels, the Denon AVR's have the lowest priced combination which supports multi-sub tuning using Audyssey.... but although better in the bass as a result, I have found the midrange to be noticeably better with Dirac - and for me, midrange comes first.

They use different target curves (unless you change them), so that needs to be accounted for. It's also questionable if you have speakers with perfect midrange and don't need EQ. I think they can both sound great.

I think the cheapest way to get a multi sub Dirac system is the AVR you speak of, and a MiniDSP 2x4 HD with multi sub optimizer. I would miss Dynamic EQ like something fierce though (tried it before, didn't last long).

 

[dlaloum]

Where do you find this information? I look on the Dirac website and it only lists NAD, Bryston and Arcam receivers and when I look through the Denon website for example, it does not list Direct as a supported option (that I could find). How do you implement Dirac on say a 4700?

Not Dirac on the Denon's - they are Audyssey only.... - but the 4700 does have independent sub outputs, and they Audyssey sub turning software, for multi subs' which apparently works well.

Dirac is on the Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer's at the mass market pricing.... and on the Nad's at the mid/high then the JBL's & Arcam at the top end

Many of us are hoping that Onkyo will release their flagship models late this year with dual (or more?) sub handling and DLBC or similar ... (RZ70 / RZ90)

 

[MLaranjeiras]

I recently made a firmware update on my Pioneer VSX LX503 AV Receiver and now native Tidal instaled on it plays full audio resolution, different from the boring 44.1kHz/16bit that it showed before. Once it does not support MQA, it does not unfold to higher resolutions, like 96kHz and 192kHz. But the sound quality gave a great improvment. Amirn commented when reviewd the VSX LX504 (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d-measurements-of-pioneer-vsx-lx504-avr.8862/) .... "Also disappointing is that the internal processing is stuck at 48 kHz. I would have wanted to at least see 96 kHz there. Surely DSP power is that much cheaper than it used to be. I know, they have to spread that out to 9 channels so the budget per channel can't be increased. Sigh. As a minimum, companies need to document such things." - I have a doubt about this conclusion: when I send a track with, let´s say, tha is 192kHz 24 bit filed on my smartphone via UPnP to the 503, the receiver displays this resolution. De boubt is: It only displays 192kHz and processes, in fact, at 48kHz or, "de facto", processes 192kHz 24bit as its specification declares?

 

[dlaloum]

If you have it in Pure Audio or Pure direct.... ie: with no DSP involved, no mixing, no Dirac, no processing at all - just receive the signal and pass it through, then it plays in full HD... but as soon as you engage any processing, or put the AVR into Direct or any other mode (all of which involve some sort of processing) - everything is downsampled to 48kHz (or kept at its original resolution if it was below 48kHz)

The display only shows the recognised incoming signal... - the output is determined by your selection

 

[Kostas]

I contacted Denon and they told me that due to part shortages they are not planning to release new receivers this year. The new models should arrive next year according to them. @NikolasA is your source trustworthy?

This video was also uploaded a week ago which also compares Audyssey against a supposedly inferior room EQ. The iota was the other AVP I was considering but I was leaning towards the denon for the better features like Audyssey, imax enhanced, 8K etc but based on that video, the Marantz did much worse when it came to movies, especially after calibration. That marantz is supposed to be superior to the 3700h too so this video had me rethinking my choice.. What do you have to say about it?

 

[NikolasA]

I contacted Denon and they told me that due to part shortages they are not planning to release new receivers this year. The new models should arrive next year according to them. @NikolasA is your source trustworthy?

I hope i am not breaking a rule by mentioning a store but I had called for a demo unit a hifiklubben store that had one in holland. I will follow up with them next week if being in september makes a difference... I am on the verge of just biting the bullet and getting a 3700h or 4700h if i can find a good deal on them... I had miscalculated in my head...and the last quarter starts in October and not in a couple days....so logically if any new units are out it makes business sence to release them then. I havent seen any of the akm veritas chips mentioned in any actual avr versions model numbers and they should be in the next round of products.

 

[dlaloum]

It may well be, that the main manufacturers, will "announce" their new AVR's in 4th Qtr, but actual stock won't be available till early 2023.

Based on the AKM announcement, about their new factory finally coming on line - mass production stock of their chipsets won't be available until 4th qtr - so Denon/Marantz as well as Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra, would be looking to manufacture towards the end of the year (as these are their preferred chipsets) - and then ship to distributors and retailers in the New Year.

But one would hope they would start kicking off the "Buzz" around the new products in late 2022....

The Xx700's date back to 2020 I believe.... so, it's been a while!

 

[delta76]

I really doubt that. Every major manufacturers would want to start selling before the holiday buying season. there is no point announcing now and miss it.
of course, with the world we are living in, nothing is impossible

 

[Kostas]

I hope i am not breaking a rule by mentioning a store but I had called for a demo unit a hifiklubben store that had one in holland. I will follow up with them next week if being in september makes a difference... I am on the verge of just biting the bullet and getting a 3700h or 4700h if i can find a good deal on them... I had miscalculated in my head...and the last quarter starts in October and not in a couple days....so logically if any new units are out it makes business sence to release them then. I havent seen any of the akm veritas chips mentioned in any actual avr versions model numbers and they should be in the next round of products.

I am in the exact same situation... I am already talking with a hifi store for a good deal on the 3700h but I am worried about rushing and the 3800H is released a month or something after I get the 3700h. Denon doesn't have a trade-in service unlike IOTA If the 3800h releases with spicy new features I m kind of stuck....

If you learn anything new regarding the 3800H please let us know!

It may well be, that the main manufacturers, will "announce" their new AVR's in 4th Qtr, but actual stock won't be available till early 2023.

Based on the AKM announcement, about their new factory finally coming on line - mass production stock of their chipsets won't be available until 4th qtr - so Denon/Marantz as well as Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra, would be looking to manufacture towards the end of the year (as these are their preferred chipsets) - and then ship to distributors and retailers in the New Year.

But one would hope they would start kicking off the "Buzz" around the new products in late 2022....

The Xx700's date back to 2020 I believe.... so, it's been a while!

If there wasn't for the shortage I am sure they would have already released the 3800H. What worries me is that unlike previous releases there is no leaked info online other than a questionable photo. Shouldn't there have been at least a teaser or something? Q4 is only a couple of months away and it's not like they have tons of X700's stock left to get rid of.... It would make more sense for them to let us know about any new units in advance so we can hold off buying the ones they can barely distribute.

 

[NikolasA]

They're in business to make money not to please us unfortunately. Nobody will anounce a model and then be stuck with stock or shoot on the foot their distribution network (hifi av shops) and letting them be forced to sell their stock heavilly discounted.... so these delays and cycles happen. For those that can wait and are educated on the process stick it out.... the 3800 is just about to be anounced... as more info has been shed on the matter on other thread here on ASR. "Big news coming from Sound United in 2023!" thread..check it out if you haven't. I am hopefull the dirac spec pans out although I am a little sceptical and worry it may be smoke screens. I truly hope not. Business wise might have made more sense to offer incremental upgrade to the 3800 like all ports 2.1 and then in the new year to offer on the 4xxxx 6xxx 8... models better new dac, dirac etc at a premium.
My patience is running very thin I might admit.. I just want to be able to use my hdmi 2.1 xbox properly already...

 

[dlaloum]

They're in business to make money not to please us unfortunately. Nobody will anounce a model and then be stuck with stock or shoot on the foot their distribution network (hifi av shops) and letting them be forced to sell their stock heavilly discounted.... so these delays and cycles happen. For those that can wait and are educated on the process stick it out.... the 3800 is just about to be anounced... as more info has been shed on the matter on other thread here on ASR. "Big news coming from Sound United in 2023!" thread..check it out if you haven't. I am hopefull the dirac spec pans out although I am a little sceptical and worry it may be smoke screens. I truly hope not. Business wise might have made more sense to offer incremental upgrade to the 3800 like all ports 2.1 and then in the new year to offer on the 4xxxx 6xxx 8... models better new dac, dirac etc at a premium.
My patience is running very thin I might admit.. I just want to be able to use my hdmi 2.1 xbox properly already...

The specs shown for the so far unanounced 3800, seem to indicate that Dirac will be optional - ie: an additional cost extra.

This is also the case for the Arcam AVR5 - and Dirac for that AVR is $350 ... no information as to whether it supports DLBC (all in one Dirac Live + DLBC is $650 for AVR5)

 

[Kostas]

So, New denons and Marantz AVRs will be announced on September and release this year...

I guess Denon support are good at lying... They straight up told me there will be no new models this year....

 

[delta76]

the people who told you probably did not know themselves. or even if they knew, they were most likely under NDA
and everything is still rumor at this point. quite "believable", but still rumor.

 

[Koeitje]

I contacted Denon and they told me that due to part shortages they are not planning to release new receivers this year. The new models should arrive next year according to them. @NikolasA is your source trustworthy?

This video was also uploaded a week ago which also compares Audyssey against a supposedly inferior room EQ. The iota was the other AVP I was considering but I was leaning towards the denon for the better features like Audyssey, imax enhanced, 8K etc but based on that video, the Marantz did much worse when it came to movies, especially after calibration. That marantz is supposed to be superior to the 3700h too so this video had me rethinking my choice.. What do you have to say about it?

I have the smaller IOTA, the predecessor. I don't think its great, it keeps forgetting the settings and its noise level is very high. Turning the processor on and off clearly drops the noise level from my speakers (Revel M106, so not very sensitive) by a ton. Just having my NC400 on results in barely any noise. Only reason I still have it is because it was so cheap and I needed something small.

 

[EdTice]

I just bought a Denon 3700 refurb direct from Denon for $999. I generally don't buy refurbs, but at that price I took a chance. We'll see how it goes-maybe cleaning out for new models???

You hit the button faster than me or I would be the owner. So congratulations.

 

[Fahzz]

You hit the button faster than me or I would be the owner. So congratulations.

Thanks. As far as I could tell the unit wasn't touched by human hands before I got it. Looks to me that the original box may have been damaged based on some cracked styrofoam, but is pristine otherwise.
Two things: keep checking the Denon site. They were out of stock a few days after I bought mine, but then they had them again. Also if you've been looking you probably know that new versions are due, and you might ge a good deal on a non refurb or maybe get one of the new ones. Good luck!

 

[NiagaraPete]

I could be be completely off base but if I were doing multiple speakers this is what I’d be looking at.

DM7 8CH USB DAC-TOPPING

 

[dlaloum]

I could be be completely off base but if I were doing multiple speakers this is what I’d be looking at.

DM7 8CH USB DAC-TOPPING

The issue is, where and how do you do all your decoding?

If there were good software to integrate all the Dolby, DTS, Atmos decoding, and do all the Room EQ on a PC - it would be fabulous....

But reality is, you can only do that by spending a fortune on professional grade software from Dolby and DTS, and then running REW.... it ends up costing a heck of a lot more than an AVR/AVP!