Killingbeans
Major Contributor
A lot of money for just checking whether your supplier is selling fake caps.
Especially the 20% tolerance kind
-
Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
The Importance of LCR Meters
- Thread starter Audiofire
- Start date
A lot of money for just checking whether your supplier is selling fake caps.
Especially the 20% tolerance kind
That it is for sure. Unfortunate but caps have become a shady business it seems for some. Multi-billion dollar industry per year I saw in a video the other day that is attracting shady operators.
Killingbeans
Major Contributor
True. But if you just need to ballpark cap values, a cheap kit form eBay should suffice.
But then again, I'm no stanger to the lust for indestructible measurement gear
But then again, I'm no stanger to the lust for indestructible measurement gear
DVDdoug
Master Contributor
- Joined
- May 27, 2021
- Messages
- 5,688
- Likes
- 8,338
My "new" multimeter can measure capacitance. I used it once and seemed finicky, or it took a long time to get a reading (around 200 uF). In the end, the problem I was trying to diagnose wasn't the capacitor...
I've been an electronics hobbyist for a long-long time and I've never really needed an LCR meter. I've also gotten-by without an oscilloscope. I've sometimes lusted for a 'scope but then I'd have to find a place to store it, plus I'd have to spend money!
I in electronics one and once or twice I've brought my home project to work so I could use the 'scope. Where I'm currently working we don't have an LCR meter and my multimeters don't have those features. (The capacitor I was recently checking was actually work-related and I brought my meter to work.)
I've been an electronics hobbyist for a long-long time and I've never really needed an LCR meter. I've also gotten-by without an oscilloscope. I've sometimes lusted for a 'scope but then I'd have to find a place to store it, plus I'd have to spend money!
I in electronics one and once or twice I've brought my home project to work so I could use the 'scope. Where I'm currently working we don't have an LCR meter and my multimeters don't have those features. (The capacitor I was recently checking was actually work-related and I brought my meter to work.)
I could use a LCR meter for my vintage computer hobby. Anything recommended?
So far i just bought new stuff and hoped it's up to spec. I see value in checking.
So far i just bought new stuff and hoped it's up to spec. I see value in checking.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #26
What's curious is that there are some threads on Audiokarma, where people claim to have measured Nichicon caps at the lowest capacitance of the 10% or 20% tolerance. They might have used a multimeter that gives inaccurate readings compared to an LCR meter.
Sources:
Has anyone measured uF on Nichicon KG or KS ?
Just trying to make an informed purchasing decision. Looking at KG (Gold Tune, Super Through) or KS Series. Understanding that tolerance is +/- 20%, and that actual values for many caps are often well below nominal values. What are your experiences? .
audiokarma.org
New Large Capacitors are built 10% low!! Does anyone measure new capacitors?
I'm going to add this edit to this thread since I have found out the answer. I changed the title to indicate what I found out. Backstory, We have been arguing about the validity of the audio caps from Nichicon, Elan and others. AKers would spout off their opinions but no one knew what the...
audiokarma.org
Nichicon Caps, Some answers from Nichicon, some info on choosing caps
We have been arguing about what caps to use and folks have put up all kinds of thoughts, ideas and guesses as to what Nichicon offers in the way of...
audiokarma.org
Capacitance values vary a lot for some types of caps and their associated costs. You know if you want to test large value caps you can charge them up and time the charge & discharge cycles. It's awkward at first but it can be done. Do you understand RC time constants?What's curious is that there are some threads on Audiokarma, where people claim to have measured Nichicon caps at the lowest capacitance of the 10% or 20% tolerance. They might have used a multimeter that gives inaccurate readings compared to an LCR meter.
Sources:
Has anyone measured uF on Nichicon KG or KS ?
Just trying to make an informed purchasing decision. Looking at KG (Gold Tune, Super Through) or KS Series. Understanding that tolerance is +/- 20%, and that actual values for many caps are often well below nominal values. What are your experiences? .audiokarma.orgNew Large Capacitors are built 10% low!! Does anyone measure new capacitors?
I'm going to add this edit to this thread since I have found out the answer. I changed the title to indicate what I found out. Backstory, We have been arguing about the validity of the audio caps from Nichicon, Elan and others. AKers would spout off their opinions but no one knew what the...audiokarma.orgNichicon Caps, Some answers from Nichicon, some info on choosing caps
We have been arguing about what caps to use and folks have put up all kinds of thoughts, ideas and guesses as to what Nichicon offers in the way of...
EDIT: Nix that idea because I forgot you will need a nice power supply to do this and resisters and stuff.
For high value caps my Fluke seems to work well although a little slow for big PS cap. For pF readings I got an inexpensive meter from Amazon which also works well. Regarding cap values I recently built a couple of Mono blocks using a mix of old and new brand name PS caps. The "old" PS caps all measured very close to their rating and all the new ones measured almost exactly 20% less than their rating (these were +/- 20% rated). It seems like the technology of capacitor manufacturing has advanced to the point where they just consistently make them to minimum spec. I know @restorer-john has mentioned this as well.What's curious is that there are some threads on Audiokarma, where people claim to have measured Nichicon caps at the lowest capacitance of the 10% or 20% tolerance. They might have used a multimeter that gives inaccurate readings compared to an LCR meter.
Sources:
Has anyone measured uF on Nichicon KG or KS ?
Just trying to make an informed purchasing decision. Looking at KG (Gold Tune, Super Through) or KS Series. Understanding that tolerance is +/- 20%, and that actual values for many caps are often well below nominal values. What are your experiences? .audiokarma.orgNew Large Capacitors are built 10% low!! Does anyone measure new capacitors?
I'm going to add this edit to this thread since I have found out the answer. I changed the title to indicate what I found out. Backstory, We have been arguing about the validity of the audio caps from Nichicon, Elan and others. AKers would spout off their opinions but no one knew what the...audiokarma.orgNichicon Caps, Some answers from Nichicon, some info on choosing caps
We have been arguing about what caps to use and folks have put up all kinds of thoughts, ideas and guesses as to what Nichicon offers in the way of...
Last edited:
I found time-domain much more painful and less accurate than measuring in the frequency domain. Have to make sure you are well below self-resonance of the caps, then just measure across the resistor (choose a resistor big enough to get reasonable voltage drop but not too much drop, and verify the resistor's value). The voltage across the resistor gets you the current through it (I = V/R) then knowing the current through it and voltage across it find C from Vcap = Icap * Xcap where Xcap = 1/(2*pi*C*f) -- solve for C at frequency f.
I need to update my knowledge base; electrolytic caps in particular used to run at the high end of their rated C out of the box because they degrade over time. Starting high provides greater lifetime (within spec).
Both Nichicon and Mouser are reputable companies. I wouldn't worry about getting fakes.
If you still insist on checking the parts and have a meter with insufficient range, you could connect several caps in series and verify that the resulting capacitance is as expected.
For such measurements I use the 4-wire mode on my Keithley bench DMM.I have two I think.Main use is fir measuring small resistances such as speaker wire.
I bought an Atlas ESR70 by Peak electronic last year. I think it was around 70 €, but it's closer to 100 € now.
Edit: I already had a 25 year old C meter for about the same price, but the Atlas can be used in circuit and measures ESR.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #33
One could say that an enthusiastic interest in electrical engineering is a prerequisite for making a decent LCR meter worth it.
I forgot that Digi-Key is also an authorized distributor for Nichicon, but has limited supply and both distributors are in the USA. There are also some other distributors listed, but they are nowhere near the supply I need in terms of capacitors.
Last edited:
If you are into vinyl, and specifically MM cartridges, knowing the total capacitance of tonearm/cable is valuable, as is knowing cartridge inductance... it then allows for more accurate voicing of the phono system via its loading parameters.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #35
Yes, there is even no capacitance mentioned in the manual for some phono stages. I am into vinyl. Although I like moving coil cartridges. They don't have that problem with capacitance.
Last edited:
DonR
Major Contributor
In-circuit meters: Peak Atlas is good for a hobbyist as is the MESR100 that I use. For out-of-circuit, the generic $10 component tester is fine and actually, a must-have tool for any hobbyist.
Blumlein 88
Grand Contributor
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2016
- Messages
- 23,571
- Likes
- 44,684
Rarely needed one. I've managed to use the frequency method of DonH56 or string together some combination of those in measurement range with those without and calculate it closely enough. Just for checking consistency of several you can put 60 hz or 1000 hz across them and see if they have the same voltage drop across each one.
Why? I will be less of an engineer then. Everyone knows that the number of meters you have indicates how good of an engineer you are. I think I have something close to 20 meters around.So, give/sell one to @Audiofire ?
antennaguru
Senior Member
Not in my experience! I have bought large value power supply caps many times from China, and only one time did I receive substandard parts - and I measure everything I get before I waste my time installing a substandard part. I have saved thousands of dollars buying from China, and used a $40 LCR meter to keep them honest. BTW, Parts Express and Digikey charge a lot more for similar caps and I had at problems with each of them too - requiring me to ship the bad parts back and wait for replacements. OTOH, with China they usually just ask for a picture of the bad parts after destroying them, and then a prompt refund is issued.
I rarely buy transformers from China as I can usually get them cheaper by buying domestically. I suspect that weight is the factor and shipping from China is more expensive.
An inexpensive LCR like this works great:
Lcr Meter Transistor Tester Esr Instrument Diode Resistance Capacitance Meter | eBay
Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Lcr Meter Transistor Tester Esr Instrument Diode Resistance Capacitance Meter at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com
Last edited:
antennaguru
Senior Member
I also wind my own inductors on small ferrite cores using different mixes for some of the Bias-Tees I make, and also use large chip caps which typically have no values on them. Verifying the values of L and C before I install them is very important for assuring that the Bias-Tee works properly. Then I sweep the Bias-Tee on a 2 port VNA for S11 and S21 to make sure they will work properly, and not just go poof. The DC injection part is actually the easy part...
Here's what a good Bias-Tee looks like inside:
Here's what a good Bias-Tee looks like inside:
