• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

The hobby/science of hifi vs the hobby/science of dogs

Burning Sounds

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 22, 2016
Messages
523
Likes
883
Location
Co. Durham, UK
Biggest issue, and saddest, with pedigreed dogs is once they become popular the unscrupulous breeders with puppy farms interbreed them into psycho, ill-health messes.. I hate to think of how many wonderful dog breed reputations have been destroyed by this practice. :(

You are absolutely right, Sal. And unfortunately it's not just unscrupulous breeders either. Legitimate, well established breeders continue to use dogs for breeding that are known to have problems. Even champion show dogs have problems such as hip dysplasia, yet these dogs continue to be used as breeding stock. Good breeders will publicise the hip scores of their breeding stock as well as any other information that might be relevant regarding healthy lives for the puppies.

I own a Gordon Setter which like most large dogs is susceptible to hip dysplasia and can also suffer from Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) which causes blindness as the dog gets older. A DNA test can be done for this. And yet I still see breeders advertising puppies where one or more parents are carriers of PRA. Quite often the breed stock will have poor hip scores, too. It just doesn't make sense to me. No wonder pedigree dogs often have problems.

The breeders of my dog ensured both their dogs were DNA tested clear regarding PRA, therefore my dog can't suffer from this, nor can he pass it on. Their dogs also had very good hip scores, which will lessen the chance of my dog developing this problem in later life.

The Gordon's Irish setter cousin suffered badly from becoming a very popular dog, with new owners simply not caring that these are gun dogs that need plenty of exercise, they don't naturally heel, they are playful and need plenty of patience when it comes to training. Apartment dwellers they are most certainly not.

Ironically, the Gordon Setter is on the vulnerable breed list while the Irish is not.

Here's my best buddy listening to some cool reggae....

gus.jpg
 

pjug

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 2, 2019
Messages
1,775
Likes
1,561
My dog got into some scraps with wildlife in her younger days during our walks in the woods. She was quilled twice within three days. When I was pulling them out from her gums after the 2nd time, I thought to myself that she might not be the brightest.

Then I thought about some nasty hangovers I've had; I didn't exactly learn that lesson so fast. I guess we deserve each other.


IMG_20180406_092619527.jpg
 

Wombat

Master Contributor
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
6,722
Likes
6,459
Location
Australia
Woofer comparison, guys? :facepalm:
 

BillG

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 12, 2018
Messages
1,699
Likes
2,266
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
My housemate has a registered, pure breed English Bulldog. While he's a lovely animal, with an affectionate nature, he's a host a health problems as a result of his breeding: breathing; prone to frequent ear infections - as a matter of fact, she has to clean them daily with an antiseptic solution and cotton swabs; prone to kidney stones if not for a special dietary supplement, which cost her upwards of $300 per month; he's at the vet's office almost monthly with some issue.

On top of that, she paid $2,500 for the privilege of owning him... :oops:

IMG_20190810_173611.png
 
Last edited:

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,524
Likes
37,057
Just from the abstract, that's more or less in line with what other studies often show. Heritability estimates for dogs are usually estimated at between 0.05 and 0.25, but the only meta-analysis that has been done implied that many estimates might be too high: https://www.gwern.net/docs/genetics/heritable/2015-hradecka.pdf

Heritability has been shown to be higher for highly instinctual behavior (like chasing prey instinctually) than for complex traits like trainability, temperament etc. Still, even the highest heritability estimates are on the low side. 25 percent heritability would imply that 75 percent of the dog's behavior is unique to that particular dog and the environment he/she grows up in.

For reference, humans have a much higher heritability, probably closer to 50 percent for many important traits. Why are dogs so much more malleable than humans, then? One reason is probably that the environment differs much more for dogs than for humans. Almost all kids in advanced societies go to school (and often kindergarden) for example, whereas dog don't have similar common institutions which mold them. Furthermore, dogs are formed and shaped by their owners to a much larger degree than human babies are formed by their parents, given that humans have much more individual agency and autonomy than dogs do. ADDITION/EXPLANATION: What this leads to is then that the underlying biological tendencies more easily get expressed in humans, because they face less constraints in their environment.

Part of what you are talking about is why I don't have a dog now. Until 15 years ago I always had one or two. I've noticed if you can be around your dog or some of your family can nearly all the time they are much more developed in a personality I would say than those that don't. Dogs that get to spend nearly all the time in meaningful contact with a human do better than those that don't. Hunting dogs might be kept as a group with limited contact with humans or you may be single, work a lot and only be with your pet part of the time and he may seem fine otherwise. But they just don't have the involved life as one that is with people all the time. So when my last dog passed away, the situation was one I didn't think it fair to have a dog as my time with him would have been limited. And I didn't have relatives right at my place for times I wasn't there during the day.

So I wouldn't need much convincing to think for dogs as a group, many of them have lived an impoverished existence in terms of complex traits even if they haven't been abused, are well fed, well cared for otherwise and have a safe life. So yes like kids that get raised and go to school in a modern society vs some kids that are just a step beyond feral existence wouldn't make for a meaningful comparison.

Now dogs I had growing up, I was almost continually outside doing something with them along, and lived near other relatives who had them around if I was at school. My sister and parents were there too. So they really were just another part of the family which seems good for them.
 

Wombat

Master Contributor
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
6,722
Likes
6,459
Location
Australia
My housemate has a registered, pure breed English Bulldog. While he's a lovely animal, with an affectionate nature, he's a host a health problems as a result of his breeding: breathing; prone to frequent ear infections - as a matter of fact, she has to clean them daily with an antiseptic solution and cotton swabs; prone to kidney stones if not for a special dietary supplement, which cost her upwards of $300 per month; he's at the vet's office almost monthly with some issue.

On top of that, she paid $2,500 for the privilege of owning him... :oops:

View attachment 31042


P.T. Barnum strikes again. :facepalm:
 

audiopile

Active Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2019
Messages
161
Likes
125
My middle bro and I grew up training retrievers and birdboying at Field trials. We spent a LOT of time around Labs ,Chessies and Goldens and the folks who bred and trained them. These were predominantly working dogs -even if their work in some cases was limited to mimicking hunting in field trials. I asked him a few years ago if he had ever heard anyone quoting a bite pressure stat for one of these bird dogs or even the breed(s) in general. Neither of us could remember anyone mentioning jaw pressure ( a dog that crushes/mangles game birds doesn't win field trials). In contrast it seems to always come up with "guard" dog breeds ? Having owned two Irish Water Spaniels in a row - the second one imported from England (so only distantly related) - the similarity in terms of behavior are striking. This leads to certain fundamental questions : Top of the pile -what the heck caused both dogs to bark ,growl and then flee in panic at the sight of fireflies ? Dogs never met each other. I can't say that having your evening end with 65 pounds of flank speed spaniel running into your knees is all that entertaining ? We previously had a absolute sweetheart of a field trial bred Golden Retriever ( I grew up with his great-great granduncle). Everyone wanted a dog like him. I would point out that the number 2 breed for dogs biting humans in the US at the time was the Golden Retriever ( which was also the number 2 purebred breed in this country in terms of popularity/no. of dogs bred). My dog was trained and socialized -but even the biting Goldens didn't seem to be killers ? But ignored mobile furry furniture are not what the world needs more of. I'd much rather trust a ethical breeder/trainer to select a dog/puppy for me - than random chance. In my case this is strongly reinforced by my one experience adopting a seven year old dog from a local shelter - flat out the scariest experience of my life was AFTER he attacked a four year old he had been playing with the week before and I had time to analysise how much worse it could have been . And ya -if you are runnin a puppy mill - neither temperament or genetic health mean a damm thing to those folks.
 

Burning Sounds

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 22, 2016
Messages
523
Likes
883
Location
Co. Durham, UK
My first Gordon Setter had extensive field trial training (not from me) and was in competitions throughout California and in Oregon in the late 70s. I only ever got to handle him once myself (as an amateur owner), and he won, but with no help from me - I managed to fire the blank pistol (we weren't to be trusted with real guns) right next to my ear and deafened myself for the rest of the day :facepalm:. Watching a gun dog change from a gallumping beast to a slinky cat as soon as they have scented a bird is something to behold. (I find Border Collies in sheep dog trials equally amazing).

Here's a young dog in training.

Of course everbody knows that you can tell the three setters apart by what they drink ! :D

gsises.jpg
 

audiopile

Active Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2019
Messages
161
Likes
125
Watching dogs do what they've been bred for is pretty amazing. Our new Irish Water Spaniel was the birdiest puppy I've ever seen. Sandy is convinced the local Robin is playin with him -but he sure is focused in on birds.
 

bigx5murf

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
522
Likes
343
All we need is now is the music preferences of dogs and why it matters.

My poodle mix doesn't have a preference. He jumps on my lap when I'm listening. He turns his head constantly, like he's looking for specific sound sources. My shitzu mix likes air supply for some reason.
 

Attachments

  • 20191125_143140(1).jpg
    20191125_143140(1).jpg
    652.5 KB · Views: 63
  • 20191202_205715.jpg
    20191202_205715.jpg
    5.7 MB · Views: 69

HemiRick

Active Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2020
Messages
133
Likes
150
Dogs breeds have a wide variation in how much they desire to please their owner.....IMHO the breeds that have a high desire to please are best, I much prefer a smart dog over a dumb one. I also prefer females as they have a much greater tendency to stay home if left out. I've owned dogs my entire life, Labradors at 1st, now I have 2 stray pit bulls that I've adopted. One of them would starve to death as opposed to hurting another animal ! When I found her she was starving to death in a woods full of squirrels and other wildlife.
 

Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
14,073
Likes
16,609
Location
Central Fl
now I have 2 stray pit bulls that I've adopted.
Pits are only the latest breed to become the whipping child of the media. I remember in the 60-70s it was the German Shepard's,
then they turned on the Dobermans and Rot's.
Sad truth is that every time a breed becomes popular the unscrupulous breeders/puppy farms start interbreeding them into crazies.
All the well breed dogs of any of the mentioned breeds I'm familiar with have been loving, friendly, eager to please animals.
EarlyLaScala.jpg
 
Last edited:

Juhazi

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 15, 2018
Messages
1,717
Likes
2,897
Location
Finland
About health and breeding in Finland https://www.kennelliitto.fi/en/kasvatus-ja-terveys
Dog's behavioral survey https://petsofi.com/ info https://petsofi.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Sciencewall_dogbeh.pdf

I made an animal test last weekend! A friend was on the road and brought her 4y King Charles Spaniel female Daisy to us. Our 4y female Irish Wheaten Terrier Willa is very social and easy with other dogs, but Daisy has lived a rather secure and quiet life in an apartment building. They didn't know each other, but Daisy spent one evening with us before the weekend.

willa daisy.jpg


The spaniel was more like a cat than a dog to me! She was shy and a little afraid of the 3 times bigger terrier. They managed well, but didn't play together. Neither was jealous of human attention or toys.

Daisy growled when Willa approached her food and we kept them apart when eating. But on Sunday I wanted to make a test - I let Daisy to come to Willa's plate, and the small one started to growl to the owner! Willa looked at her and after the next murmur she attacked, took spaniels head in her mouth, growled angrily and pushed her away. I immedeately pulled them away and the spaniel walked away (without bleeding wounds) - the lesson was learned! Afterwards they were friends again and sat side by side on sofa with me!

Here is Willa's first meeting with two 6mo dogs, all running free! https://photos.app.goo.gl/QRu4vjmZqEraf5gX6
This is how healthy and self-confident young dogs behave!
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom