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The hobby/science of hifi vs the hobby/science of dogs

oivavoi

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Hi all, just venting some frustration. There was recently a thread on "Why is audio so angry"? In that thread people compared hifi to other hobbies. I have just discovered one hobby which is just as unscientific and subjectivist as hifi: Dogs!

Long story short, we're probably going to get a dog. I love dogs, always have. Being the incurable science-nerd that I am though, I of course set out to read the science on all things dogs before committing to choosing a dog. And it dawned on me that the dog hobby - institutionalized in kennel clubs etc - is all based on pseudo science, just like the world of hifi has traditionally been.

I was surprised to find out these things, which are the complete opposite from what the kennel clubs will tell you:

- mixed breeds dogs are healthier than purebreds and live longer. Really, it's no competition. When one looks into it, the genetics behind those correlations are obvious and well documented. That's all the more impressive given that mixed breeds are often owned by humans with less resources who provide their dogs with less training and vet visits etc, more often come from shelters, and are more likely to have owners who let them be run over by cars (a Swedish study showed this surprising finding - probably because it's a smaller monetary investment, so people get less protective of the dog).

- the jury is still out on whether there are consistent behavioral differences between dog breeds at all! Yes, this was the most suprising finding to me. There are some studies which indicate some average differences between breeds - but they may very well be due to selection (people who want to go hunting choose "hunting dogs", people who want their dog to attack people they don't like choose "fighting dogs", etc) or just training. In any case, the studies that do find differences between breeds often reveal them to be very, very small, with larger differences found within each breed:

lab-border.JPG


There are obviously large differences between breeds concerning how they look, given that looks is what they are bred for these days. But as for behavior, it's much less clear-cut. Individual differences within breeds easily trump differences between breeds.

- and if one would want to improve a breed, the only logical way to do that is bring in fresh blood from the outside, not select other dogs from within the breed

--------------

But here is my experience, after attempting to discuss this with people on dog forums: It's impossible! It really is, it just doesn't work. Dog subjectivism reigns supreme, more or less completely. This made me think: Why does the dog hobby seem so similar to the mainstream of the audio hobby, concerning the lack of respect for science and rationality? I think it may be because the hobby of dog fanciers actually shares some similarities with the hifi hobby: It's to a large degree a status hierarchy thing. People get into the dog hobby because the like dogs, but then slowly the inner logic of the hobby starts getting to them, and they become obsessed by winning shows and "improving the breed". And then every challenge to the breed logic becomes a challenge to ingrained status hierarchies.

But just like with hifi, things are moving on the outside... more and more people get mixed-breeds instead, to the great chagrin of the kennel clubs. There are many people who just want a companion dog, just like there are many people who just want to listen to music on a audio system that does the job. Off-topic rant over.
 
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Juhazi

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Irish soft coated wheaten terrier, sterilized bitch, 4½years, nickname Willa. Pure breed with good manners and health, walks mostly unleashed.

her masters voice1.jpg

kollektori.jpg
 
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fitero

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What kind of man doesn't have a dog? A loser. I love that part of the movie The Kid, where the chubby, lisping boy realizes that his grown-up self doesn't have a dog and laments upon how he obviously turned out to be a loser.
 

Wombat

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I have to wonder if you are taking-the-piss re ASR?
 

Soniclife

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Why does the dog hobby seem so similar to the mainstream of the audio hobby, concerning the lack of respect for science and rationality?
Humans make the same mistakes over and over, so do dogs, but when they do it it's adorable.

More seriously it's all the things you state, plus vested interests from breeders claiming pure is better as they have investment in blood lines. I think you're right, it's exactly the same as hifi.
 

Juhazi

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Oh yes, I too like mixed dogs the most, but my wife fell in love with wheatens. Our dog if from 1st kindle of a new kennel, the owner was not happy that we sterilized our puppy at 12 months before going to a show once.
 

SIY

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My dog makes a great mobile sound absorber. 50 kg of fluff. And when she hears something, she makes a great mobile sound emitter at very high SPL.

See? I tied it all together.
 

mansr

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Btw, are there more dog lovers here on ASR?
I like dogs. Don't have one as my living conditions (2nd floor flat) and lifestyle (frequent travel) are not particularly dog friendly.

Compared to audio, there is one major difference. And amp doesn't suffer, no matter how poorly designed or how badly tweaked.
 

Blumlein 88

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I like dogs. Don't have one as my living conditions (2nd floor flat) and lifestyle (frequent travel) are not particularly dog friendly.

Compared to audio, there is one major difference. And amp doesn't suffer, no matter how poorly designed or how badly tweaked.
I don't know. I've heard some poorly designed amps emit sounds that sure seem like suffering. Or is it me that is suffering?
 

Blumlein 88

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A friend had a wolf/shepherd hybrid since it was 6 weeks old. Watching that canine was very interesting as it was a good contrast to fully domesticated canines. You never notice how much regular dogs naturally pay attention to and try to please the humans. Until you see one that doesn't. Various things made you think the hybrid was much smarter than the average dog, yet so many things just went over its head because it wasn't predisposed to care or pay attention. A big difference was food. It quickly learned if humans had drinks in their hand they probably had food out in the open too. It had absolutely nothing else on its mind no matter how long until it got at least a little of bit food. You may think your dog is that way, but it isn't. So many things that are effective training a young dog just have no effect on a wolf hybrid. You have to be very unyielding and never slip up to train it to act in ways you want it to act.

Now all of that said, the hybrid pup grew up around a couple of regular dogs. It did in time learn to act right, was well trained and well behaved. It even learned things most dogs cannot or at least do not. It took about three times as long. But its happiness never hinged on how happy the humans around it were in the way a regular dog does. You come to learn you really owe it to your dog whenever possible to let it know you are happy with it because it has literally been bred that way. The wolf hybrid it don't care. If you do what makes it happy (feed it, play with it, keep it interested) it is happy. If it does something you don't like..... your problem. It has no shame.
 

Blumlein 88

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Any dogs in the vicinity would surely be suffering. Think of the dogs. Tweak responsibly.
Yet one more reason for no NOS unfiltered DACs and no MQA with its lazy filtering. ASPCA needs to get on the anti-MQA bandwagon.
 

restorer-john

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What kind of man doesn't have a dog? A loser.

We have two cats, Julio and Enrique. Both black/white tuxedo cats. Our next dog is going to be a Bernese mountain dog. (my partner has had a few and loves them)

- the jury is still out on whether there are consistent behavioral differences between dog breeds at all

What jury? The jury deciding whether the owner of a dangerous dog should go to jail? Some dog breeds (or mixed breeds) are simply dangerous. Ask any doctor which dog breeds cause the most injuries he needs to stitch up on little old ladies and children. Ask the plastic surgeons which dog breeds result in the most catastrophic facial injuries on children and babies.

So all the human deaths caused by PitBulls, German Shepherds, Rottweilers and American Staffordshire Bull Terriers as compared to labradors, poodles, border collies, silky terriers and daschunds and not valid?

Purebred or mixed-breed American Staffordshire bull terriers have killed at least four people in Australia this year (2019) and they were either the owners or immediate family in 3 cases.
 

svart-hvitt

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Hi all, just venting some frustration. There was recently a thread on "Why is audio so angry"? In that thread people compared hifi to other hobbies. I have just discovered one hobby which is just as unscientific and subjectivist as hifi: Dogs!

Long story short, we're probably going to get a dog. I love dogs, always have. Being the incurable science-nerd that I am though, I of course set out to read the science on all things dogs before committing to choosing a dog. And it dawned on me that the dog hobby - institutionalized in kennel clubs etc - is all based on pseudo science, just like the world of hifi has traditionally been.

I was surprised to find out these things, which are the complete opposite from what the kennel clubs will tell you:

- mixed breeds dogs are healthier than purebreds and live longer. Really, it's no competition. When one looks into it, the genetics behind those correlations are obvious and well documented. That's all the more impressive given that mixed breeds are often owned by humans with less resources who provide their dogs with less training and vet visits etc, more often come from shelters, and are more likely to have owners who let them be run over by cars (a Swedish study showed this surprising finding - probably because it's a smaller monetary investment, so people get less protective of the dog).

- the jury is still out on whether there are consistent behavioral differences between dog breeds at all! Yes, this was the most suprising finding to me. There are some studies which indicate some average differences between breeds - but they may very well be due to selection (people who want to go hunting choose "hunting dogs", people who want their dog to attack people they don't like choose "fighting dogs", etc) or just training. In any case, the studies that do find differences between breeds often reveal them to be very, very small, with larger differences found within each breed:

View attachment 30901

There are obviously large differences between breeds concerning how they look, given that looks is what they are bred for these days. But as for behavior, it's much less clear-cut. Individual differences within breeds easily trump differences between breeds.

- and if one would want to improve a breed, the only logical way to do that is bring in fresh blood from the outside, not select other dogs from within the breed

--------------

But here is my experience, after attempting to discuss this with people on dog forums: It's impossible! It really is, it just doesn't work. Dog subjectivism reigns supreme, more or less completely. This made me think: Why does the dog hobby seem so similar to the mainstream of the audio hobby, concerning the lack of respect for science and rationality? I think it may be because the hobby of dog fanciers actually shares some similarities with the hifi hobby: It's to a large degree a status hierarchy thing. People get into the dog hobby because the like dogs, but then slowly the inner logic of the hobby starts getting to them, and they become obsessed by winning shows and "improving the breed". And then every challenge to the breed logic becomes a challenge to ingrained status hierarchies.

But just like with hifi, things are moving on the outside... more and more people get mixed-breeds instead, to the great chagrin of the kennel clubs. There are many people who just want a companion dog, just like there are many people who just want to listen to music on a audio system that does the job. Off-topic rant over.

These are names for you to explore further:

Per Arvelius*
Jenny Nyberg
Curt Blixt
Frode Lingaas

I enjoyed all of them on a dog behaviour seminar three years ago.

Dr. Arvelius is an expert on dog breeding. Highly interesting.

I think one needs to distinguish between breeding for health and life expectancy and characteristics. Previously, dogs were bred for personality traits, characteristics, to perform as a practical tool. I marvel at the patience of those breeders who bred for developing traits, not for fun or for having a dog «friend».

So you may have a cross-breed dog as a good companion, but if you want a dog to perform a service, you are better off with a full breed.

The Swedish military has German Shephard dogs only. Ask Dr. Arvelius why :)
 
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