The famous AB test between amplifiers

[JSmith]

involving a variant

Did you mean a variable?


JSmith

 

[Geert]

Well, you didn't ask me why I replaced it, you didn't ask me if I had problems with the hk990 software, you didn't ask me if you've always wanted to have a Macintosh, you didn't ask me if I like the aesthetics, you didn't ask me if I really needed more power than 300 rms per channel

Again, topic of this discussion is differences in sound, like "Natural, effortless control of dynamic swings, a linear power response throughout the frequency range, a true sense of fidelity to the recorded event, a Muhammed Ali-like speed and power propelling every note, deep authentic bass and a wonderfully human and palpable midrange with an organic, yet polished aural touch". But I'm sure the MC611 solved your software issue. It doesn't have any ...

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Some pretty profound magical thinking to maintain delusion happening in this thread

 

[END WAY]

Some pretty profound magical thinking to maintain delusion happening in this thread

What magical thoughts are you referring to?

 

[MAB]

From what you say, it seems to me that this man was able to make amplifiers and modify them to the point that they rivaled the most expensive ones,

Yes, he matched the volumes.

I suppose he was even able to copy their sound in some way.

He claimed he did things to copy the sound by nulling the amplifiers and listening to the difference signal through a speaker. He was really just matching the volume of the outputs. Could have done the same with a voltmeter at the amp's outputs in just a few minutes, but the complicated matching procedure was part of his magic act.

Now if you put them both in an A/B test and they sound the same, maybe that's because it is like that.

The only blind test was done after the amp was allegedly modified, rather than controls applied throughout the demonstration. No way those Stereophile golden ears would have been able to tell the difference even before he did his performative tweaking. No surprise. In reality, Carver couldn't tell his amp from a Niles install amp (I had already demonstrated that to myself).

What I don't agree with is that we take a simple electronics amplifier x and want to compare it with an excellently built one and expect the same results (normally the better built one will sound better)

Well you should challenge yourself and discover properly working amps are indistinguishable. Looks like your reading comprehension is very low.

 

[END WAY]

Yes, he matched the volumes.

He claimed he did things to copy the sound by nulling the amplifiers and listening to the difference signal through a speaker. He was really just matching the volume of the outputs. Could have done the same with a voltmeter at the amp's outputs in just a few minutes, but the complicated matching procedure was part of his magic act.

The only blind test was done after the amp was allegedly modified, rather than controls applied throughout the demonstration. No way those Stereophile golden ears would have been able to tell the difference even before he did his performative tweaking. No surprise. In reality, Carver couldn't tell his amp from a Niles install amp (I had already demonstrated that to myself).

Well you should challenge yourself and discover properly working amps are indistinguishable. Looks like your reading comprehension is very low.

We're back to the same thing, so all properly built amplifiers sound the same across the frequency range, they have the same dynamics, they have the same timbre, they have the same musicality, they have the ability to handle the complexity of a speaker at different impedance loads, meaning there are no sonic differences that you can hear, is that how you think it is?

 

[antcollinet]

they have the same dynamics, they have the same timbre, they have the same musicality, they have the ability to handle the complexity of a speaker at different impedance loads,

There is only:

Noise
Distortion
Frequency response
And (for an amp) output impedance (Which when high just impacts frequency response some more when using speakers with low impedance dips)

Timbre - that is just harmonic distortion.
Musicality - doesn't exist for electronics. Music is musical - gear is not.

When those things all fall below the threshold of hearing - which with "properly built" amps they do, then those amps are going to sound the same if not driven into clipping.

There is nothing magical in amp design - or in the design of any other electronics. It is all just engineering.

 

[NTK]

We're back to the same thing, so all properly built amplifiers sound the same across the frequency range, they have the same dynamics, they have the same timbre, they have the same musicality, they have the ability to handle the complexity of a speaker at different impedance loads, meaning there are no sonic differences that you can hear, is that how you think it is?

See this post by Dr Floyd Toole at AVSForum.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/official-jbl-synthesis-pro-revel-home-theater-thread.2515137/page-86?post_id=53745009#post-53745009

 

[Mart68]

We're back to the same thing, so all properly built amplifiers sound the same across the frequency range, they have the same dynamics, they have the same timbre, they have the same musicality, they have the ability to handle the complexity of a speaker at different impedance loads, meaning there are no sonic differences that you can hear, is that how you think it is?

If they have the same frequency response they will have the same timbre (they are the same thing).

'Musicality' has no technical meaning. My amp is more musical some days - it doesn't change but I do.

Not all amps will handle tough loads well, so yes there will be audible differences in the right situation and that may be what you are hearing. But you didn't blind test properly so we can't say for sure at this point.

 

[END WAY]

If they have the same frequency response they will have the same timbre (they are the same thing).

'Musicality' has no technical meaning. My amp is more musical some days - it doesn't change but I do.

Not all amps will handle tough loads well, so yes there will be audible differences in the right situation and that may be what you are hearing. But you didn't blind test properly so we can't say for sure at this point.

Let's take it one step at a time. Are you saying that if they have the same frequency response, they have the same timbre?

Let's make it easier, let's make a comparison, but in speakers, let's take a Magico M9 and measure the frequency response at 100 db. Now let's take a Sony Bose sound bar or whatever that doesn't distort or at least below the hearing threshold under that same SPL and you put a DSP like the Brax that has the possibility of making adjustments that I would say are infinite and if you want, you put it on active and additionally you put the automatic function which will put exactly the same curve that you ask for in 99% of the cases, then would you say it sounds exactly the same? Just tell me yes or no

 

[NTK]

Let's take it one step at a time. Are you saying that if they have the same frequency response, they have the same timbre?

Let's make it easier, let's make a comparison, but in speakers, let's take a Magico M9 and measure the frequency response at 100 db. Now let's take a Sony Bose sound bar or whatever that doesn't distort or at least below the hearing threshold under that same SPL and you put a DSP like the Brax that has the possibility of making adjustments that I would say are infinite and if you want, you put it on active and additionally you put the automatic function which will put exactly the same curve that you ask for in 99% of the cases, then would you say it sounds exactly the same? Just tell me yes or no

Stay on subject. OP started this thread to talk about amplifiers -- see the thread title?

Oh wait... You are the OP

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

We aren't talking about speakers. We're talking about amps. What part of an amp might affect the signal coming out of the speaker connections the way you are implying by bringing up speaker comparisons? Do you think sound waves are bouncing around in the amp box being altered and then fed to the speakers or something?

 

[Mr. Widget]

Let's take it one step at a time. Are you saying that if they have the same frequency response, they have the same timbre?

By definition, timbre is frequency response.

Let's make it easier, let's make a comparison, but in speakers, let's take a Magico M9 and measure the frequency response at 100 db. Now let's take a Sony Bose sound bar or whatever that doesn't distort or at least below the hearing threshold under that same SPL and you put a DSP like the Brax that has the possibility of making adjustments that I would say are infinite and if you want, you put it on active and additionally you put the automatic function which will put exactly the same curve that you ask for in 99% of the cases, then would you say it sounds exactly the same? Just tell me yes or no

Speakers are much more complex than amplifiers so that is an entirely different discussion.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Let's take it one step at a time. Are you saying that if they have the same frequency response, they have the same timbre?

Let's make it easier, let's make a comparison, but in speakers, let's take a Magico M9 and measure the frequency response at 100 db. Now let's take a Sony Bose sound bar or whatever that doesn't distort or at least below the hearing threshold under that same SPL and you put a DSP like the Brax that has the possibility of making adjustments that I would say are infinite and if you want, you put it on active and additionally you put the automatic function which will put exactly the same curve that you ask for in 99% of the cases, then would you say it sounds exactly the same? Just tell me yes or no

Speakers have various directional and resonant issues that go beyond simple response and distortion. However if they fed the same electrical signal a given speaker will give the same output. Comparing two different speakers is a whole different animal.

 

[Mart68]

Let's take it one step at a time. Are you saying that if they have the same frequency response, they have the same timbre?

Let's make it easier, let's make a comparison, but in speakers, let's take a Magico M9 and measure the frequency response at 100 db. Now let's take a Sony Bose sound bar or whatever that doesn't distort or at least below the hearing threshold under that same SPL and you put a DSP like the Brax that has the possibility of making adjustments that I would say are infinite and if you want, you put it on active and additionally you put the automatic function which will put exactly the same curve that you ask for in 99% of the cases, then would you say it sounds exactly the same? Just tell me yes or no

You were talking about amplifiers, as was I. Now you want me to say two speakers with the same FR will sound the same?

Can we not focus on one thing at a time?

Yes, any two competent amps used within their capabilities will have the same timbre as they will output a flat FR within the audible range.

Timbre is a function of frequency response. It doesn't come from the designer using a secret blend of 11 herbs and capacitors as some would have you believe. (I have met some amp designers who do believe that. But they don't blind test themselves).

 

[oleg87]

From what you say, it seems to me that this man was able to make amplifiers and modify them to the point that they rivaled the most expensive ones, I suppose he was even able to copy their sound in some way. Now if you put them both in an A/B test and they sound the same, maybe that's because it is like that.
What I don't agree with is that we take a simple electronics amplifier x and want to compare it with an excellently built one and expect the same results (normally the better built one will sound better)

Define "better built" and what the relationship to sound quality is?
Electrons don't know the price or perceived "simplicity" of whatever they are traversing.
Audio amps are mature technology, it is neither hard nor expensive to create an amp with imperfections that fall below audibility in typical non-overload conditions, at least at modest power levels.

 

[mhardy6647]

Analogies are like slivers of a broken mirror...

I think those are similes.

Some pretty profound magical thinking to maintain delusion happening in this thread

You'd love the UFO thread.

 

[Mart68]

You'd love the UFO thread.

Everyone loves the UFO thread. We're starting a Bigfoot one next month.

 

[mhardy6647]

Again, topic of this discussion is differences in sound, like "Natural, effortless control of dynamic swings, a linear power response throughout the frequency range, a true sense of fidelity to the recorded event, a Muhammed Ali-like speed and power propelling every note, deep authentic bass and a wonderfully human and palpable midrange with an organic, yet polished aural touch". But I'm sure the MC611 solved your software issue. It doesn't have any ...

Actually -- speaking of magical thinking and similies metaphors: Here we have magically mixed metaphors, at an incredibly high density.

 

[END WAY]

There is only:

Noise
Distortion
Frequency response
And (for an amp) output impedance (Which when high just impacts frequency response some more when using speakers with low impedance dips)

Timbre - that is just harmonic distortion.
Musicality - doesn't exist for electronics. Music is musical - gear is not.

When those things all fall below the threshold of hearing - which with "properly built" amps they do, then those amps are going to sound the same if not driven into clipping.

There is nothing magical in amp design - or in the design of any other electronics. It is all just engineering.

A/B testing shows you a small part of the whole comparison you might have in the real world, if I get an amplifier that sounds similar at another volume level and on top of that I put strangers who are listening to the system for the first time in it, obviously there will be no opportunity to find differences. You say that if the amplifier has power levels, noise distortion, impedance handling and a response curve equal to that of another amplifier, it will sound exactly the same, so why compare A with B if they are two practically identical amplifiers, obviously they will sound the same,
But if you tell me that amplifier A is a well-built, inexpensive model with a fair power supply that tries to prove that it is as good as an amplifier like an MC611 and that it sounds the same and you want to convince me by doing a controlled A/B test at a certain volume with songs that do not require current in an open room etc..., what's more, I give you the option of using a DSP in the inexpensive amp, I will definitely tell you yes, I could hear differences if you do the test in my room with my acoustics and with my speakers.

I have already tested the HK990, which is an excellent amplifier compared to the MC611, and I have found differences.

You could say that I have golden ears and that's it, I don't care, I know where to put my money to try to achieve the goal I want and I assure you that I'm on the right track.